Posts by ithinkisee

12

Is there a better way to convince family?

by happysunshine in

jw
friends

i've been thinking about this a lot.

i think a lot of people are like me (especially after researching the witnesses via sources like this board), in that they attempt to convince their family, weather directly or indirectly, that the wts is wrong.

while there is a possibility of this working, the chances seem small, at least for dyed in the wool witness families.

ithinkisee

I agree that the best anti-witness to a witness is to be happy in your life and show that you love them regardless. Don't bring up the JW stuff in an attempt to sway them .... An idea for a strategy is this: Find a cold hard fact they can't refute. Don't use assumptions, or "isn't it weird how ..." type logic. Find an unrefutable fact about how wrong they are. Learn it forwards and backwards. Be well rehearsed and have any scans or documents in a folder ready-to-go. (In my case I love to bring up how I had been going to the doors telling people that the Bible Students predicted 30 years in advance that Jesus would reign invisibly in 1914. (And show Watchtowers that claim this) Then show the person where the BIble Students most emphatically did NOT predict this by showing scans of the old literature (which actually said Jesus was already reigning and Armageddon was coming in 1914). Then I tell them that I can't go to the door and tell what appear to be blatant lies.) Then just keep it in your back pocket. Never bring it up. Just keep rehearsing it - maybe weekly perhaps. Practice countering typical JW responses to your point. Practic out loud. They will eventually ask you what is keeping you from being at the meetings. Just say you don't want to talk about it. Be sincere, not snobby or arrogant about it. Say something like, "Look, I love you so much. I would love to talk to you about this, but it's best if we just agree to disagree. I don't want to threaten our relationship anymore than it already has been. Let's just let it rest." If your relative asked you once, they will likely ask you again. Especially if you seem content and are rebuilding your social structure outside of the JWs. Don't be fake about it - let them know that life goes on and you still have the same stresses regarding living life you always did (minus the meetings of course). Like others on this thread already said, this will be the best witness. This will get them to ask again. Don;t force it. Just let them ask when they are ready again. Then .... get ready to tell them .... but point out a couple of things to your relative BEFORE you get into your rehearsed talking point. Tell them, "My decision to leave was one of the biggest decisions of my life. It was not something where I just read a book or got tricked into looking at an apostate web page and said to myself, 'Okay, I'm done'. It was a PAINFUL decision. It was a decision that resulted in a lot of self examination and sleepless nights crying and wondering if maybe I could just fake being a JW in order to keep my family happy, because I love them so much. I REALLY wanted to stay and keep the peace. I really did." Act reluctant to tell them your reasons. Make it clear that you are reluctant to tell them because of how much you love them and you don't wish to lose them. Let them know you appreciate their friendship despite how other family members might have started shunning you and making you feel like crap. Finish up by laying down a couple of kind ground rules, "Like I said, I love you dearly and to get involved in a shouting match or bouncing around from scripture to scripture is not going to get us anywhere. I would love it if you could just let me explain where I'm coming from and let me get it all out. If you'll let me do that then I will let you respond without me interrupting. I think that's fair. Is that cool?" Then, say one more thing to take the pressure off of your JW relative, "I want you to realize one thing. I am not going to sit here and think that I can get you to think like me. That is not my objective. So please don't think I'm trying to 'recruit' you away from the Witnesses. You asked me what my deal was, so the PURPOSE OF ME TELLING YOU THIS IS ONLY SO YOU CAN KNOW WHERE I AM COMING FROM. Like I said before, I love you whether you are a JW or not. The only thing I want you to get out of this discussion is that I did not make this decision overnight. A lot of thought went into it." ==== WHAT THIS WILL ACCOMPLISH:

Establishes your genuine love for your JW relative.
Ensures that the discussion will not ended in heated debate and insults.
Takes the pressure off your JW relative that you are trying to lure him/her away. (Even though you are!)

Anyways, those are my .02 cents. For the most part it was the strategy I took when talking to my wife (minus a few details). I have modified it slightly for upcoming talks I anticipate with extended JW family members, but the premise is still the same - namely - taking the insults and ultimatums out of the equation and letting them know you genuinely love them. That way even if they ultimately choose to remain JWs, it's possible you can still have a positive relationship with them.

You will likely have to modify my suggestions to fit your own particular family situation ... Hope that helps,

-ithinkisee

12

Point for Point response to Trinity Brochure?

by BlackSwan of Memphis in

i am looking for a resource to a point for point response to the trinity brochure.

also, i can't believe i'm going to ask this, but how can i get an acutal copy of the thing without contacting the wts is some manner?

thx again for your help.

ithinkisee

This is a great page with scans of the actual books the Society misquotes from:
http://www.macgregorministries.org/jehovahs_witnesses/examtrin/examintrinity.html
You can also order all the scans of the publications listed for $2 or $3 on their website.
Great stuff.

1

Mormons dancing at the door ...

by ithinkisee in

these guys obviously had fun making this: .

http://www.break.com/index/goodword.html.

(windows media player required) .

ithinkisee

These guys obviously had fun making this:

http://www.break.com/index/goodword.html

(Windows Media Player Required)

-ithinkisee

32

JWs and the lack of high emotional states

by Lady Lee in

jws and the lack of high emotional states

the wts capitalizes on a couple of mood states.

the biggest is fear.

ithinkisee

Holy crap. That's me in a nutshell.

At work I was always told that people can never tell if I am kidding or not because my expression was always the same. (sarcastic half-assed grin)

I still feel like I am alot that way, and I envy others who are very honest with their expressions.

I don't fear everything anymore ... but I still have to keep a layer of protection over my emotions because I know I still have JW family that I will eventually have to "have it out" with.

Then my emotion will come at weird times. Like during a touching family moment on Extreme Makeover Home Edition, or a story on NPR that focuses on a family, or a song, or something. But then the next time I hear the song it won't affect me anymore. I dunno ... it's weird.

I look forward to shedding this awful numbness sometime ... obviously it's not an overnight process.

It takes awhile for callouses to go away ...

-ithinkisee

9

My Story

by L_A_Big_Dawg in

i am not sure if i am posting this in the correct forum.

if not i am sure i will be told.. while, i have hit this site from time-to-time in the past, i have never really frequented it.

until recently.

ithinkisee

Great story. I wish I could have seen those Dr. Martin shows. I managed to get a bunch of his lectures on MP3 and it was what helped me decide that I could actually talk and reason with a JW (in this case my wife).

I didn't go the born again Christian route like you - but Walter Martin was definitely key to helping me decode the wacky New World Translation - and identifying the Society's pattern of misquoting and misrepresenting scholars to suit their ends.

Thanks for sharing

-ithinkisee

14

Anyone Remember Dr. Jim Howard, Bethel Doctor in the 80s??

by Seeker4 in

jim howard was a psychiatrist who became a jw.

he was from a congregation near mine here in vermont, and i knew him long before he was invited to become the physician at bethel.

he had a lovely wife and a terrific young teenaged daughter at the time.

ithinkisee

I was in the Howard's congregation. Their daughter's name was Sarah Kate. Very nice family. He gave me my official Bethel physical complete with a finger up the rectal cavity. -ithinkisee

34

Dan Brown DID NOT write "The Da Vinci Code"! (Defense for the Christians!!)

by danbrownfraud in

(defense for the christian faith!).

wow!

he is a fraud!

ithinkisee

Haha. . .. that transcript reads like a Monty Python movie.

"A witch! Burn her!"

Dan Brown's book is fiction for crying out loud. THe problem the church is having is that there are a few pieces of evidence in their they would rather people not talk about.

Is there a grand conspiracy to cover things up? No. But they would prefer people (Christians) not talk about it anyways.

I used to read Louis L'Amour books all the time. They were all fiction, but he would have them meet famous REAL LIFE cowboys and outlaws on the trail and hear "unique" takes of their lives. But it was fiction mixed with real life charactars and real life storylines. There is certainly nothing wrong with that kind of writing.

-ithinkisee

39

Combatting Mind Control by Steve Hassan - with WT References

by ithinkisee in

(4) emotional control.

behavior control

emotional control

ithinkisee

Also available in PDF format (so all the color coding is correct):

Cult Traits using Jehovah's Witnesses own literature.

39

Combatting Mind Control by Steve Hassan - with WT References

by ithinkisee in

(4) emotional control.

behavior control

emotional control

ithinkisee

OK ... I give up on the whole color formatting thing. But you get the idea.

-ithinkisee

39

Combatting Mind Control by Steve Hassan - with WT References

by ithinkisee in

(4) emotional control.

behavior control

emotional control

ithinkisee

Emotional Control

Fear is used to manipulate two ways. The first is to create an outside enemy (we vs them) who is persecuting you.

Watchtower 2002 October 1, p.18 Jehovah Blesses and Protects Those Who are ObedientNo doubt prior to and during that time, Gods people will experience major tests of their faith and obedience.
Watchtower 2002 October 1, p.9 Cultivate Obedience as the End Draws NearIn fact, the main target of Satan's spiritual warfare consists of Jehovahs anointed ones…
Watchtower 2002 October 15, p.1 Oppose the DevilIn these "last days", however, Satan is concentrating his efforts on Gods dedicated servants, waging war with anointed Christians…
Watchtower 2002 October 15, p.18 Jehovah Cares for You Satan is doing all in his power to bring persecution, opposition, and pressure from all quarters upon Jehovah's people. He tries to disrupt our peace and destroy our fine standing with our God.
Watchtower 2002 November 1, p.17 Maintain your Conduct Fine Among the NationsUnfortunately, some "unreasonable men" in authority persecute us or oppose us in other ways - such as by promoting smear campaigns against us. Still, in Jehovah's due time, their lies are always exposed, and their "ignorant talk" is effectively muzzled.
Watchtower 2002 Novermber 1, p.19 Christian Neutrality in the Last DaysFirst, we remember that we must expect opposition. We should not be shocked or even surprised if we meet up with it. Paul warned Timothy: "All those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesis will also be persecuted." (2 Timothy 3:13; 1Peter 4:12).
In a world where Satan's influence reigns, why would we not meet opposition? (Revelation 12:17) As long as we are faithful, there will always be some who are 'puzzled and go on speaking abusively of us.' - 1 Peter 4:4 […] It may be that Jehovah, for his own good purpose, allows pressure from opposers to continue for a while.
Worldwide Security Under The "Prince of Peace" There has descended upon this generation the darkest period of all human history! Indeed, there is a fitting darkness outside the visible part of Jehovah’s organization into which the “sluggish” and “good-for-nothing” slave class can be thrown at the order of the Master. Such a “darkness outside” depicts the bedarkened condition of the world of mankind, especially in a religious sense. The world of mankind is not enjoying the light of God’s favor and blessing. It is not in the light of the knowledge of the . It is under “the god of this system of things,” who “has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.”
You Can Live Forever In On Earth ch. 25 p. 212
HOW TO AVOID BEING PART OF THE WORLDWell, you live in among the people who make up today’s organized human society. These people include fornicators, greedy persons and others who do wicked things. You may work with them, go to school with them, eat with them, and share in other such activities with them. (1 Corinthians 5:9, 10) You are even to love them, as God does. (John 3:16) But a true Christian does not love the wicked things the people do. He does not adopt their attitudes, actions or goals in life. He takes no part in their corrupt religion and politics. And while he must often work in (creating “us vs them” paranoia cont’d)
the commercial world to make a living, he does not engage in dishonest business practices; nor is the gaining of material things his main goal in life. Since he is for God’s new system, he avoids the bad association of those living for Satan’s world. (1 Corinthians 15:33; Psalm 1:1; 26:3-6, 9, 10) As a result, he is in Satan’s world but still is no part of it.
Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.14 Defending Our Faith
4 Second, Jehovah's Witnesses have been targets of false accusations-barefaced lies and twisted presentations of their beliefs. As a result, they have been the object of unjustified attack in some lands. Further, because they seek nonblood medical treatment that is in harmony with their desire to obey the Bible's command to 'abstain from blood,' they have wrongly been labeled "child murderers" and "a suicide cult."
(really? compare with:)
Awake! 1994 May 22 p.2; Youths Who Put God First 3-15
In former times thousands of youths died for putting God first. They are still doing it, only today the drama is played out in hospitals and courtrooms, with blood transfusions the issue
Watchtower 1998 December 1 p.17 Defending Our Faith
What About Slanderous Publicity?
15 At times, Jehovah's Witnesses have been the target of distorted information in the media. For example, on August 1, 1997, a Russian newspaper published a slanderous article claiming, among other things, that Witnesses categorically require members to 'reject their wives, husbands, and parents if these do not understand and do not share their faith.' Anyone who is truly acquainted with Jehovah's Witnesses knows that the charge is false. The Bible indicates that Christians are to treat unbelieving family members with love and respect, and Witnesses endeavor to follow that direction. (1 Corinthians 7:12-16; 1 Peter 3:1-4) Even so, the article was printed, and many readers were thus misinformed. How can we defend our faith when we are falsely accused? (really? compare with:)
Kingdom Ministry August 2002 pp.3-4
Display Christian Loyalty When a Relative Is Disfellowshipped9 Relatives Not in the Household: "The situation is different if the disfellowshipped or disassociated one is a relative living outside the immediate family circle and home," states The Watchtower of April 15, 1988, page 28. "It might be possible to have almost no contact at all with the relative. Even if there were some family matters requiring contact, this certainly would be kept to a minimum," in harmony with the divine injunction to "quit mixing in company with anyone" who is guilty of sinning unrepentantly. (1 Cor. 5:11) (notice scripture partially quoted to make it say something it didn’t mean.) Loyal Christians should strive to avoid needless association with such a relative, even keeping business dealings to an absolute minimum.
Watchtower 1988 April 15 pp.26-31 Discipline That Can Yield Peaceable Fruit22 For example, on page 26 we noted Lynette's comment about her choice 'to cut herself off completely from all association' with her disfellowshipped sister Margaret. She and her Christian relatives 'believed that Jehovah's way is best.' And it is! [...] 24 In another case, Laurie's parents were disfellowshipped. Yet she says: 'My association with them never stopped but increased. As time went on, I became more and more inactive. I got to the point of not even attending meetings.' Then she read material in The Watchtower of September 1 and 15, 1981, that stressed the counsel of 1 Corinthians 5:11-13 and 2 John 9-11. "It was as if a light bulb were turned on in me," she writes. 'I knew I would have to make some changes. I now better understand the meaning of Matthew 10:34-36. My decision was not an easy one for my family to swallow, for my son, five, is the only boy, and they love him dearly.' It is hoped that losing such association will touch the parents' hearts, as it did Margaret's. Still, the discipline involved helped Laurie: 'I am back out in the field ministry. My marriage and family are stronger because of my change, and so am I.'
Watchtower 3/15/1986, pages 10-11
"Do Not Be Quickly Shaken From Your Reason'But the Devil and other opposers of true worship are skilled in deception. We should never forget that they stand ever ready to break our integrity if they can. Their propaganda is designed to weaken our faith, to cool our love for God, to sow doubts in our minds-yes, to make the spiritual paradise appear to be no paradise at all.
Watchtower 1983 January 15 p.22 Exposing the Devil's Subtle Designs
22 This fact cannot be overemphasized: We are in a war with superhuman foes, and we constantly need to be aware of this. Satan and his demons are real; they are not mere figments of the imagination. They are "the world rulers of this darkness," and we have a spiritual fight against them. (Ephesians 6:12) It is absolutely vital that we recognize their subtle designs and not allow ourselves to be overreached by them. Very appropriately, then, we will next consider how we can arm ourselves to fight against these wicked spirits.
The Watchtower January 1st 1983 Issue, Page 31
…the expelled mate has proved that he is not the sort of person that we want to be around... So maybe a visit can be made when the disfellowshiped one is known to be out of the house.
Watchtower, March 1st 1979 p.24 Outside the true Christian congregation, what alternative organization is there? Only Satan's organization consisting of his political 'wild beast' and his Babylonian world empire of false religion.
February 15, 1960 Watchtower Seek Right Associations There is to be no partnership, no fellowship, no portion, no sharing with unbelievers. In other words, no association with them if one is to associate with
[…]
But, to ‘turn away from such,’ to avoid association with them means not to have fellowship with those whose thoughts are not in harmony with God’s thoughts, that is, not to share in their thoughts or conduct.
[…]
Even if such acquaintances are not dishonest or immoral, their first concern is not the worship and service of Jehovah. One who associates regularly with them will soon think as they do.
Nov 15, 1952 Watchtower pp.703-704 Questions from Readers (note – this is a paraphrase… not a quote – but the article is on the WT CD-ROM in its entirety.)
We as Jehovah’s Witnesses can’t kill disfellowshipped people in these modern times. If we could we would. If the children are of age, then there can be a departing and breaking of family ties in a physical way, because the spiritual ties have already snapped.

The second way fear is used is the fear of punishment by the leaders if you are not “good enough.” Being “good enough” is following the ideology perfectly.

The Watchtower, October 1, 1967, p. 591Make haste to identify the visible theocratic organization of God that represents his king, Jesus Christ. It is essential for life. Doing so, be complete in accepting its every aspect
Watchtower Apr 1, 1986 p.30-31 Questions From Readers Approved association with Jehovah's Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovah's Witnesses.

Group members cannot see the control by guilt and like other abuse victims are conditioned to blame themselves when things are wrong, even grateful when a leader points out their transgressions.

Watchtower 2003 10/1 p23 Accepting Jehovah’s Discipline We all need Jehovah’s discipline. (Proverbs 8:33) In fact, we should long for discipline that is based on God’s Word. As we study God’s Word, we can accept the discipline that comes directly from Jehovah through the Scriptures. (2 Timothy 3:16, 17) At times, however, we will receive discipline from fellow Christians. Realizing the spirit in which such discipline is administered will help us to accept it willingly.
Watchtower 1986 May 1 pp. 26-28 Can You Accept Discipline?
Is Discipline Really So Bad? So the wise Christian is grateful (!!!) when help is offered in the way of kindly discipline. The words of the prophet are true no matter what our age or experience in life: “I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step.” (Jeremiah 10:23) Hence, all of us need discipline.
[...]
If loving Scriptural discipline is offered on a personal basis, by all means accept it in the spirit in which it is offered. Take advantage of any corrective training that comes from Jehovah.
[...]
Accepting discipline can help us to be among those who please Jehovah. Discipline will help us to ‘walk faultlessly, practice righteousness, and speak the truth in our heart.’ (Psalm 15:1, 2) Therefore , may all of us accept discipline.
Watchtower 1986 March 15 pp.15-20 Allow No Place for the Devil!
If you are counseled or even reproved for some wrong practice or attitude, this, too, may prove to be an ideal time for the Devil to prompt you to ask yourself if you are in the right organization. So keep humble

The most powerful emotional control is phobia indoctrination. This can give the person a panic reaction at the very thought of leaving the group. It is almost impossible to conceive that there is any life outside the group. There is no physical gun held to their heads but the psychological gun is just as if not more powerful.

WT 9/15/1993 p.22"But if we were to draw away from Jehovah's organization, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy."
Watchtower, March 1st 1979 p.24Outside the true Christian congregation, what alternative organization is there? Only Satan's organization consisting of his political 'wild beast' and his Babylonian world empire of false religion.
Worldwide Security Under The "Prince of Peace" 7 p. 60There has descended upon this generation the darkest period of all human history! Indeed, there is a fitting darkness outside the visible part of Jehovah’s organization into which the “sluggish” and “good-for-nothing” slave class can be thrown at the order of the Master. Such a “darkness outside” depicts the bedarkened condition of the world of mankind, especially in a religious sense.
Watchtower 1957 May 1 p.284 Trust Your Proved, Faithful Brothers
We will realize that Jehovah knows what is going on in his organization, and if he is willing to permit it, who are we to insist it should be different? If we really have faith, we will know that if it is wrong he will straighten it out eventually, and we are far safer inside his organization even with these minor difficulties than we would be on the outside where only chaos and destruction await us.

Phobic attitudes or behaviors are sometimes noticeable when attempts are made to converse with members regarding their belief in the group or its leaders.

Typical response if someone questions a pivotal doctrine: “What, are you becoming apostate or something?”
Watchtower 1983 January 15 p.27 Fight Against Independent Thinking If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: "Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God's organization?" No, we cannot!-
Namecalling (fallacy: ad hominem):
“What … are you turning apostate now?”
”You are being selfish/prideful/arrogant/faultfinding to question the Organization.

Fear of confrontation with family is common, resulting in very few people being rescued.

Self explanatory

Good quote from the book:
When cult leaders tell the public “Members are free to leave any time they want; the door is open,” they give the impression that members have free will and are simply choosing to stay. Actually, members may not have a real choice, because they have been indoctrinated to have a phobia of the outside world. Induced phobias eliminate the psychological possibility of a person choosing to leave the group merely because he is unhappy or wants to do something else.