John 3:36 - He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.
John 5:24 - Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me, has eternal life; he does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:54 - he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Borgfree
My apologies for repeating anything that had already been said, I am at work and sometimes have to actually do work, so it takes longer for me to complete my post.
borgfree
Valis,
I think I understand what you mean, I just do not believe it fits most of the people I know who attend the convention.
The first year I attended (fresh out of 54 years of believing the WT) I went to the alter and gave my life to our Lord. I am not attempting to preach here, just explain. At that point I was given eternal life (my beliefs) I am under no obligation to accept anything some speaker says, I can accept it or not, that is my choice.
Christian living is much different than JW living. Unity in the Christian faith is unity is Jesus Christ and His sacrifice. There are many things Christians will differ on, as far as beliefs are concerned, we can do that, and still be brothers and sisters. The only real unity must be our Lord.
We can also love other people, whether they share our beliefs or not, we can actually love our enemies, (talked about but not necessarily practiced by JWs) I find living as a Christian entirely different from living as a JW.
Our keynote speaker will express his thoughts, views, etc. I will agree with him or I may not agree with everything he says, again, my choice. If I like, I will get up and walk out, I will still be treated as a brother by the others there.
I forget who the keynote speaker is, but, if it is Erick Greishaber, he is an ex-JW, now a Pentacostal Pastor, you only need to be careful around him because he is in the habit of giving bear-hugs, he is a big guy.
Borgfree
Valis,
I spent my life believing the WT. I do not consider it the same thing at all. As witnesses we believed "the world is under the power of the wicked one" I think most Christians believe that is so. If that is the case then it would be wise to be careful of the information we believe. I am not afraid to read or listen to any information but I do not believe everyone who is considered an authority of some kind, I will use my own mind, unlike when I was a JW.
This will be my 10th year at the convention. I hope to never miss it. It is nice to be with people who have been where we have been.
There will be a man there who has attended every convention since the first one. He claims he still is not a believer. I guess if the convention was anything like the WT, he would have given in to the mind control by now.
Borgfree
Main Entry: 1 fundamental
Pronunciation: "f&n-d&-'men-t & l
Function: adjective
Date: 15th century
1 a : serving as an original or generating source : PRIMARY <a discovery fundamental to modern computers> b : serving as a basis supporting existence or determining essential structure or function : BASIC
2 a : of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts : RADICAL <fundamental change>; also : of or dealing with general principles rather than practical application <fundamental science> b : adhering to fundamentalism
3 : of, relating to, or produced by the lowest component of a complex vibration
4 : of central importance : PRINCIPAL <fundamental purpose>
5 : belonging to one's innate or ingrained characteristics : DEEP-ROOTED <her fundamental good humor>
synonym see ESSENTIAL
Websters Dictionary
this will probably sound controversial to anyone who is still religiously inclined so i apologies upfront and do not mean any offence by it.
it's just my 'pondering'.. i was thinking about all the times that i heard form the platform and read in the watchtower that jesus made the greatest sacrifice ever in history by giving his life in exchange for all minkind, to die for our sins etc.. but even if this were true, would it be such a great sacrifice?.
giving one life in exchange for thousands ... millions ... billions seems to be not too big a sacrifice for the return and one that many people would make today.
Simon,
I would tend to agree with you, if I believed Jesus is who the Watchtower taught us he is. For Christians who believe Jesus is God, His sacrifice takes on a much bigger meaning.
Imagine God, the Creator of everything in existence, (even the WT teaches Jesus created everything (else) coming to earth, being born and raised by imperfect humans, putting up with all of the faults of imperfect humans, His entire life, to save the lives of the very people who hated Him, and would finally torture Him, and put Him to a cruel death.
Seeing Jesus in that way, should make us more understanding of the huge sacrifice He made.
Borgfree
Edited by - borgfree on 25 August 2002 20:48:9
no that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
FriendlyFellaAl,
You commented:
I'm sure that my answer to your message is going to be seen as a cop out or somehow acquiescing to your point of view, but it's not.
Not at all. I thought it was a friendly discussion, not a, to the death duel. As you know, I am a Christian, and, I believe the bible. You have a different view, that is your right, and I do not think any less of you for having a different view.
Borgfree
no that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
Xander,
No scientist has ever said that.
I beg your pardon, I was even taught in school, by the science teacher, that sceintists stated that it is impossible for bumble bees to fly, but they fly anyway. I am not going to look it up.
That's an interesting leap of logic from somone who doesn't believe in evolution. (In short, no, there is no way viruses could be created by the 'breakdown of the human body', or breakdown of ANY body - they are completely unlike any other living organism).
I don't believe I indicated it was done by evolution. I believe the Creator, being omnisciencient (sp) could, and did, forsee all things and created everything necessary to handel every possibility.
BTW, I noticed a lot of your comments seem to be very similar to much other christian debates against evolution in using a 'straw man' - specifically, your own incomplete understanding of how it and biology works.
I am giving my thoughts and ideas as to how things "might" have happened. If my answers are like other Christians, I do not find that unusual.
My first post to you:Read up some on evolution theory, make sure you understand what it is. Only then can you fairly make up your mind what to believe, and know how to intelligently debate it.
I got involved in a debate on evolution some months ago on this board. It is a never ending debate and one that cannot be proved one way or the other by science, I believe.
My second post to you:
I will try to respond to your questions. I will admit from the start that my responses will not be to your satisfaction, how can anyone know what the Almighty God is thinking? or why He did or did not do certain things?
and:
I am not that knowledgeable about viruses and parasites.
and:
I will have to leave that question for someone more qualified that me. I do not know the answer.
and:
Sorry, that is the best I can do. There are some here much more qualified that I am to discuss those questions.
I don't think I gave any indication that I thought I was qualified to adaquately debate the subject of evolution.
I did not even intend to post very much about it but, SYN said:
Borgfree says he doesn't want to answer some simple questions!
so, I thought I would answer what I personally think.
At that, I will end my discussion on evolution.
Borgfree
no that is not a description of a piece of rear-anatomy (i don't want to get booted again <g>).
rather it is the rage now.... please check out http://www.leftbehind.com/ and take a look.
the reason i bring this up is because 3 different people i know (not xjws) are all into this "stuff" now.
Xander, you said:
Evolution is not wrong, and it is understandable - there are many biologists who study it on a day to day basis. Further, belief in evolution does not require believing in contradictory teachings. RE: "God of Love" vs "Who creates smallpox?".
I would disagree and I think millions of other people would disagree that evolution "is not wrong, and is understandable"
There are also many people studying the Satanic bible, that does not make it truth. Some scientists have, in the past, declared that it was impossible for a bumble bee to fly. They were obviously wrong.
I believe God is Love, as the bible states. Why does the answer have to be that smallpox was created? Maybe that is like asking Ford Motor Co. why they manufactured rust. Maybe diseases happen as a result of human inperfection and the breakdown of the human body. If a person were in perfect health his body would probably be immune to disease.
We can explain why evolution works the way it does - you cannot explain why your god works the way he does. We can explain how evolution works - you cannot explain how your god works. Evolution can explain how life has got to where it is, including why we have viruses and parasites - you can't explain why life is the way it is now, including why we have viruses and parasites.
Is that really true? Has the explanations of evolution remained exactly the same from Darwin until now? If it has changed, then one would have every reason to doubt current teachings, just as we now recognize about the WT.
You are right, I cannot explain why God works the way He does.
Evolution may be able to explain all of those things, but, are the explanations trustworthy? will those explanations change in the future?
Science is all about finding a REASON for things
I think the word science means knowledge. I am, and always have been, a believer in true science. I also recognize that some scientists have been dishonest in the past, for their reasons, and some might be dishonest again. If there is a Creator, (I believe there is,) I do not expect to have all of the answers now, I do not think the scientists have all of the answers either.
Funny....that wasn't mentioned in 'Genesis'. Which, of course, then begs the question of....did 'god' create everything as we see it today? (Well, obviously not) So, what DID everything look like when it was initially created? Genesis even states humans were created not knowing good from bad, and demonstrated no self-awareness (and talking to animals, fer cryin out loud!)
Atomic energy was not mentioned in Genesis either. So, whats so bad about talking to animals? Some people talk to TV sets. (sorry, excuse the attempt at humor, I am having a hard time concentrating right now, my work force is coming in and we are getting busy)
You could look at our genetic code to find out, but that involves asking questions you seem to be uncomfortable with.
What I am uncomfortable with is trusting "experts". They seem to change, and then blame the people for being ignorant.
Must get to work. Later.
Borgfree
