twenty minutes ago, there were two large explosions in dayton, ohio.
they were strong enough to vibrate my house.
the local news reported that a plane struck the veterans administration building about 5 miles from my house.
I work in downtown Dayton. I am here now. A little while ago I heard explosions but al I have been told so far is that a plane went down at the VA. Thats all I know, sorry.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Julie,
I would just like to thank you for this thread. I left the borg and determined that NO one would again enslave my mind. I believe any discussion like this one cannot be harmful. I am a believer, to me personally my biggest reason is Jesus and His example. I will not close my mind.
Today we are having a first hand example of how WE feel when attacked and threatened by forces who do not care about life, liberty, or just plain human kindness. How will we react?
Thanks again.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
jeremiah 25:27 - "and you must say to them, 'this is what jehovah of armies, the god of israel, has said: "drink and get drunk and fall so that you cannot get up...".
vs. 28 - and it must occur that in case they refuse to take the cup out of your hand to drink, you must also say to them, 'this is what jehovah of armies has said: "you will drink without fail..."'.
these are probably my favorite verses in the bible.
Sunstarr,
Thanks but I must go to bed.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
jeremiah 25:27 - "and you must say to them, 'this is what jehovah of armies, the god of israel, has said: "drink and get drunk and fall so that you cannot get up...".
vs. 28 - and it must occur that in case they refuse to take the cup out of your hand to drink, you must also say to them, 'this is what jehovah of armies has said: "you will drink without fail..."'.
these are probably my favorite verses in the bible.
Sunstarr,
Hey, If you can't come up with a good excuse...any excuse will do.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Utopian Reformist,
I scanned a few other threads, I do not have the time to keep up with many of them, and I found that several are about this same subject. I had posted on one called 'heaven' but I had not read any of the one called 'God not only condoned mass murder, He ordered it'
I found that they all seem to be saying about the same things. I think that some of my replys were even close to the same thing others have said. I am sorry if I have repeated someone elses thoughts.
I have thought about the posts in this thread off and on all evening and I wish I could come up with some very insightful information, I am afraid that I cannot.
After reading a lot of posts on this forum I keep having the feeling that many ex-jws here have been hurt very badly in their encounter of whatever length with the Watchtower Society. I have been myself. I also get the feeling that many here blame God for that hurt and blame Him for the deception and deceit that they have experienced from the Cult. That is where I differ with them.
One of the last committee meetings I had while I was a JW was concerning a problem I had with another JW. I had been taught my entire life certain things from the WT. I was now asking the elders to uphold those teachings and insist that justice be done in my case, they would not. I was very angry about it and I made my feelings known to them. One of the elders had the nerve to say to me "you feel like Jehovah has let you down, don't you, you feel that He has failed you" my statement to the elder was "NO, I don't think that Jehovah has let me down, the organization has let me down, NOT Jehovah"
I think the WT wants JWs to put the blame on God for their wrongs, after all they blame Him for their failings. In reading these posts I can see very plainly that many on this forum are very intelligent, far above me. I just wish they would put as much effort into thinking of reasons why God does what He does and how Creation must be true as they do trying to think of every reason they can to condemn God.
God did not do it. The Watchtower Society did. I don't see anyway I can prove evolution wrong. I haven't seen anything yet to make me believe it is right. I saw a picture that someone posted (I forget who it was) It was supposed to be some prehistoric man. Why would we believe that? Because the skull was large with big eyes? Maybe that is proof that Martians were once here. Sorry, just had to say that. But really, there are deformities even today that I think would account for that skeleton.
Scientists have been wrong many times, I do not know any statistics but I would bet that they are wrong about as much as they are right. And, many scientists do not believe evolution. I think even Einstein believed in a Creator. How about the Martian rock they found in the Artic? (I believe it was there) They make bold claims that that rock came from Mars many years ago, based on what? BS, I don't believe it.
The bible has many prophesies. Time after time those prophesies have come true. Many prophesies were about the coming of the Messiah, they were all fulfilled. How could Jesus have controlled where He was born? and when He was born? How could He make the soldiers gamble over His clothing. How could He make the Jews offer Judas 30 pieces of silver, just the amount prophesied? On and on it goes, that is proof to me. Not scientists who have in the past falsified findings so that they would get the fame from a fake. I'll take the evidence supporting the Messiah, which supports the bible, which supports God.
Answers to the many questions we can ask will not be answered by any man. Try asking the One who can answer.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Utopian Reformist,
I do not know if you are an ex-jw or not but, if you have any bible training, I think you already know the answer to the why do people like Hitler exist in the first place, question. It is something like this, God created a paradise, put perfect man in it, man rebelled against God and decided he could break God's rules, God said, ok lets see how YOUR way works out. There must have been a given amount of time for man to try his own way.
Why did God make certain groups? I don't think I can answer that very well, I can guess. Maybe it was an example for us as to what God can and will do if we choose His way.
Human emotions leading to war? back to eden and the rebellion.
I do not consider my faith blind. Even as a teenager I considered evolution etc. I was an agnostic for a short time as a teenager. On another thread I quoted from Romans 1:19-22. That scripture says that creation itself testifies to a Creator. I believe that it does, whether or not we try to understand the mind of a Creator, that we can never understand, simply because if we could, we would be like Him.
I don't want you to think I am being rude, but I must now get ready for work, so if there is some reply you would like from me I will have to reply when I get home tonight. Have a beautiful day.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Hi Julie,
Thanks for your answer. I wish I could answer better. I just do not believe God to be the horrible One that some do. The bible says that He created ALL things that would include laughter, joy, happiness, flowers, bear cubs, sex, and the bible says that God IS love.
I know all the accusations against Him and I wish I had a Godly answer. I can only try to think from Gods point of view, an impossibility, but just a couple of things. Suppose you had the power of God and you decided to build a nation of people who would be YOUR people, blessed as no other nation was ever blessed. In the area you chose to settle your people were a nation led by Adolph Hitler, Edie Amin (sorry for the spelling) Gingis Khan, Alexander the Great, and a few more like those.
You know in your wisdom that those nations would be a constant source of evil toward your nation. What would you do?
God did not order the torture of those people, he ordered their complete destruction. At least SOME of those people were committing horrors far worse that death. They were sacrificing their OWN children to a god in fires, burning their children in flames.
The same God who ordered the destruction of those evil people also has complete control of life, death, pain, suffering, etc. He can restore life, He can end suffering.
The writings in the old testament are hard to understand, the God who took on human form in the new testament did only good while He was on earth. Such a God could not create something He Himself does not possess, like compassion, mercy, joy, tenderness, etc.
Again, I look at our earth, the countless life forms, the endless vegetation, the sea with all of its variety. Then the vast universe with creations we cannot even imagine. I believe in THAT God, but, He is the same one who ordered the destruction of nations, how do we square that? Someone has a far better answer than I.
Do we hold our own governments to that kind of standard? In world War II, do we think Harry Truman was a monster for ending the war with a horrible bomb? Every time there is some kind of a war innocent people are brutalized. I think most people think that is ok, after all it had to be done to END evil.
We simply cannot understand all of the details of God's decisions. We can only have faith in a God Who has shown us such extreme love in other areas. I do.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
:i welcome those of your quality of character and refusal to sink into the mire of atheism or deep cynicism, .
i found these words to be so interesting.
i have seen posts (albeit few) that discuss the bible and whether or not it is of god.
Julie,
I really do not feel qualified to respond to your post. I know there are so many with abilities far better than mine, but I am not ashamed to be a Christian and so I will put my 1 1/2 cents in. I was taught from the earliest day I can remember that I did not need the education from school, armageddon was just around the corner and I would be taught everything I need to know in the New System. (New World back then) I also believed that, and did not apply myself to getting all the education that I could have. It shows.
With that disclaimer I would say that I have arrived at some conclusions and have remained Christian. I do not know why God ordered the killing of men, women and children, including infants. I have been taught reasons 'why' some of those reasons make sense to me, some not so much sense.
I could repeat my statements above about a lot of 'why did God' do this or that. As humans we are faced with some realities. If God exists, we can question all we want, we can accuse Him all we want, etc. But if He exists then what? Do we say, 'ok God I will not believe in you, I will believe that you do not exist!' Does that change the outcome? Wouldn't that way of thinking just punish ourselves.
For my reasons, by research, and much bible reading I believe in the God of the bible. I believe that I cannot understand some things that He does, but I believe He has asked us to have faith for a few short years of our life and be obedient to Him and He will give us an eternity of blessings we cannot even imagine.
I could make comparisons of how we punish our children etc. but so can you, we all have. I believe that whatever terrible things we may blame God for, that one day we will have facts that will give us the ability to really judge whether God is a God of love or not. Even with all of the bad someone might accuse Him of, I see the love He has shown to us, even sacrificing His own Son, for us.
He is there. Whether we want to acknowledge Him or not is our business, you can deny a hurricane and say it does not exist but when it hits your area you will get the same effect.
Thanks for letting me have my 1 1/2 cents worth, at best.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
-just curious who's going to be at the witnesses now for jesus conference in pennsylvania come october 19-22. i'm definitely going to be there, and i'd love to run into lots of you good folks.... the program has been posted at http://pfo.org
Hi Neonmadman,
I plan to be there. If I make it it will be my 9th year. Also my son just left the Borg a few months ago and plans to be there also.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
i believe i have set the wheels in motion for what i believe will lead to my disfellowshiping.
i have been inactive since 1987 and still getting along with the witnesses (invited to gatherings etc.
) but something came up that finally push my buttons just enough to make me explode.
BTW Freeman,
I forgot to thank you for posting your letter. I think it has some very good points. I do not know if you want it used or not but with your permission I will print it and give it to JW family members (there is one or two who would accept it)Thanks again.
Borgfree
"You can fool some of the people all of the time" especially if you are a member of the WT GB
