Posts by slimboyfat

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

Or if thoughtful atheists are embarrassed by atheists who go around insisting God has been disproved and believers must be either ignorant or dishonest.

19

Britain Branch Relocation - Chelmsford, Essex

by wifibandit in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i97qudi-jwe.

.

a-19-e 10/15.

His accent sounds a bit like Jack Barr. Did they at any point explain why they need to do this relocation? In the past new branches were sold as necessary expansions to increase capacity. What's the rationale for this? It seems like a lot of activity for activity's sake, and collecting donations.

20

Are we victims of abuse? Should we even think of ourselves that way?

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

abuse is such a serious word and i'd hate to use it lightly so if anyone reading this has suffered physical or sexual abuse please know that i absolutely do not equate religious abuse with your suffering.

that being said, many of us were lied to and manipulated for decades.

this cultic 'abuse' has borne fruit in shattered relationships, broken families and estranged children.

slimboyfat

Yes it probably is.

A strange thing is that as long as you are "under the spell" it can work out okay for you though. Many people seem to be happy and thrive as JWs.

I read an academic article recently, I can't remember the title, that looked at health outcomes associated with strict religions in particular, if I remember correctly.

It said people who stayed in such religions had similar health outcomes to the general population. But people who left such religions had worse health outcomes. I think this included but was not confined to mental health.

It's very stressful to leave JWs because it alters your perception of what life is all about and where it's going. And causes all the personal problems mentioned too.

Sometimes I think of JWs I know who are smug and I think, "they'll find out in the end it's a lot of rubbish, that'll knock the smugness out of them". Then I think to myself, "they'll probably never have that realisation, they'll do pretty well, and be smug until they die".

Sometimes I think smug believers are the lucky ones. They may be victims too but they show no signs of it.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

so what's up with your desire to know what posotivism means viv

Also, how come we've adopted Viv's odd spelling of positivism? ;-)

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

Since nicolaou is still waiting for that answer to the initial question of the thread, here goes...

A few years ago I was interested in existentialist solutions to the meaning of life. It's commonly an atheistic perspective on life associated with philosophers such as Nietzsche, Sartre and Camus, but also the Christian philosopher Kierkegaard and to some extent the philosopher Heidegger who was a practising Catholic (among other things). I especially liked Camus' emphasis on the absurd nature of the human condition and the position we humans find ourselves in. We are in a world without inherent meaning and yet we seem doomed to strive constantly as if there is a point to it all.

Sartre said we are forced to choose how we will respond to our situation, there is a compulsion. This predicament can at times cause an uncomfortable sensation like nausea. As, for example, when we are at the top of a cliff, looking down, there is sometimes an absolute realisation that we can choose to fall or we can choose not to fall. The choice is utterly ours, and we cannot say there is no choice. We must choose, gladly, most often, the choice we make is not to fall. But the lesson is that all of life can be likened to that extreme choice. And when we realise this, there is the sense of nausea. We must choose what to make of our lives: whether and with what to inscribe it with meaning. Faced with the absurdity of a world without inherent meaning, we cannot avoid this choice.

Nietzsche discounted heaven and hell as providing ultimate meaning, but he did teach what is called the "eternal return". This is the idea that when we die we go back to the beginning and live our life again, exactly the same, and again, and again, eternally. Some have said these comments by Nietzsche were a result of mental illness toward the end of his life and not to be taken seriously. Others have said it's a metaphor to live your life by: if you approach life as if it is going to be repeated eternally you may choose to get up out of bed earlier, not bicker needlessly, do something worthwhile, something authentic, instead of making inauthentic choices leading to time spent tediously and pointlessly.

Authenticity is a key idea for existentialist writers, and promoted as the goal for a life filled with meaning of our own making. And it's easy to see how the idea of authenticity is an appealing concept for former JWs who have often struggled with authenticity when breaking from the JW religion. As a recent author has said, living a fake life is simply bad for you.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/sep/25/why-being-a-fake-is-bad-for-you

However in the past few years I have come to doubt the wisdom of inscribing our lives with individual meanings. Maybe we don't need to find life inherently absurd, and there is an alternative to simply making the best of it as individuals as we can,

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

I am glad I watched it because I doubt a better argument for theism exists, and yet the argument does not work in the case of the tsunami.
To argue there is a good reason to drown a quarter of a million men, women and infants is impossible. It requires contradicting Jesus about the definition of godly love.

That's not quite the argument. It's not making the positive claim that there is a good reason for evil. The point is that we cannot rule out the possibility that there may be a good reason that we are unaware of. Given that a supreme being would undoubtedly be unfathomably wiser than we are, and given that human knowledge and understanding is limited, I don't think it is unreasonable to allow for this possibility, even if it seems remote.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

No you don't. It's no bold claim to say that a quarter of a million people not drowning in a tsunami is better than the deaths of all those men, women and children.

I agree with you, and I can think of no good excuse. The tsunami of 2004 was one of the key things that pushed me toward atheism. In particular I don't think free will or other explanations are satisfactory. But might there be some other explanation that we either don't know yet or are not able to grasp? I can't logically rule out that possibility. To say otherwise seems to give inordinate esteem to our own ability to know, understand and offer a final judgment upon the nature of the world and reality. Therefore, to me, the problem of evil makes it difficult to believe in a loving God, but it does not prove that he does not exist.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

Seriously? You watched that video and thought it was a good explanation?

Yes, that's why I posted it. Glad to clear that up.

His first point is an old as the hills and totally moronic. 'If God exists we would expect that many of his reasons for doing things are stuff we can't figure out.'

Well it's a point made by philosophers down the ages and which has underpinned the belief of billions of believers past and present. Majority opinion doesn't mean right opinion, of course, but the complete confidence with which a tiny minority of atheist true believers call the views of the vast majority of humans past and present "totally moronic", or "stupid or dishonest" displays no small degree of arrogance.

This pre-supposes that God is a being that will not communicate his reasons for doing things. But if such a being exists why should we bother to be interested in it?

A fair question, but this is a different question than God's existence. And it seems to ignore the fact that this is precisely how the Bible presents God. Romans 9 says that God made Pharaoh stubborn and obstinate and then punished him. Paul asks how God could act that way. His answer indicates that sometimes humans can't understand God's actions and are not in a position to demand an answer.

One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it,‘Why did you make me like this?’” 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

We can figure things reasons God might have lots of the evil in the world - and he lists free will and a cause and effect universe. No we can't figure it out! Because why would a vastly intelligent being who can create life, the universe and everything not be able to set up things up so that they don't create such evils. Why did he create us with the ability to see evil and not create a universe that doesn't contain it?

I can't think of any good reason either. The point is not that we can give a good reason. The point is that there may be a good reason that we are not aware of. I can't understand why this distinction appears so difficult to grasp, or why the idea that human knowledge may be limited in this way is so unthinkable for some.

That's why the big bang and evolution makes more sense to me. I look at Parasitoids and ask myself, does that look like the work of vastly intelligent creator or the result of evolution? Because if they were created, that God is sick.

Well I don't see evolution and God as opposites. I have little time for creationism which I think is separate from the existence of God. I rate the chances of creationism being correct something less than 1%. Whether there may be a God or not, I don't know, at the moment maybe 25% or so.

SBF - I hope you get answers to your questions. You come across as a slightly tragic figure who has lost his JW faith and now just restlessly searching for meaning in life. I feel sorry for you.

I guess many are looking for answers, especially those who leave JWs. Whether you or I or anyone else is more "tragic" in that, I don't know how to judge. But the attempt to substitute actual argument with ad hominem psychobablle is pretty transparent.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

If the Most Perfect Mother keeps her children locked in a closet for years, and I say that behavior is incompatible with being the Most Perfect Mother, is that an example of the DKE?

Context is everything. Say the the mother was German, the children half Jewish, the years 1938 to 1945, and the location Munich.

I am simply saying it is at least possible there are things about reality, our human predicament, and the history of life that we don't fully understand and are not in a position to understand. It is at least possible that there may be further layers of insight into our situation that may give a new and different perspective.

In order to uphold that the problem of evil definitely rules out a loving God you have to make some pretty bold claims for human knowledge. You have to say that humans have got this all figured out and there is nothing we could ever learn in the future that could materially alter our perspective.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

Good explanation of the reasons why the problem of evil doesn't necessarily disprove a loving God, especially the third video.

https://youtu.be/V4z9Y2u30Qs

https://youtu.be/prWSGbDW3LU

https://youtu.be/L67dlpMgDa4