we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
People follow the crowd. We all look around us for clues as to what's the smart thing to do. And we look to authority as well. None more so than JWs.
That's why I think it might be very interesting if JWs start to decline in numbers. It would send a terribly demoralising signal to JWs. That combined with the loss of authority on the part of the GB might pave the way for a disorderly unwinding of some sort, rather than a gradual decline.
David Voas predicted this outcome.
we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
OutLaw there's a difference between what JWs are supposed to do and what they actually do. The very fact that so many Watchtowers warn against: education, marriage outside, friends outside, joining groups in the community, losing contact with Kingdom Hall when relocating, is telling. If these things were not a problem among JWs they wouldn't need to write about it all the time. They warn against these things because they occur so frequently and because they are likely to draw people away from JWs.
Phizzy I'd be really interested to hear your further reflections on why you the decision to leave despite it appearing to be against your interests.
Not to be rude but my impression of people who believe they have left JWs for purely doctrinal reasons is that they are a bit unreflective, not to say enamoured by an idealised version of themselves and motivations.
now the harvest is underway up north i can get out for a walk with the metal detector in the evening.
i am lucky to live on a historic rural estate and i have permission from the landowner to detect.. this is a coin that popped up last night.
it was only about 2 inches deep and had been tumbling around in the plough soil for the last 750 years.. it is a silver penny of king henry iii.
Do you ever find anything Viking? We want to visit the island over there the Vikings invaded. (I forget the name it had the gospels) I haven't been since I was young and I want to go back again after watching the Vikings TV series.
it is a pain that certain individuals pride themselves on hating god, who created everything.
like it's understandable that you choose to not believe in him because of your selfishness or thinking skills but to hate him is forcing it a bit.
i'm very thankful that those such as myself have the courage to believe in the lord.
God doesn't exist, the bastard - Sartre
we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
Well actually, OutLaw, I would argue otherwise.
My experience and reading indicates to me that JWs tend to leave JWs, not because their beliefs have been refuted, but because the beliefs and practice of being a JW have been displaced by their needs being met elsewhere.
People make new friends, join a new club, meet a new partner, start a new career, move to a new location, or start education. These are the life events that tend to precipitate leaving JWs - other than being forced out.
So if we are really interested in persuading JWs to leave (and I'm not sure we should be, I'm just following the argument through) then the most important thing to do would be to demonstrate how leaving is viable and how others have done it successfully. Logical arguments about doctrine might be intellectually stimulating, not to mention psychologically reinforcing for people who have already left or decided to leave, but don't play much role in the decusion itself.
so we were talking about noah for our family worship tonight and it ended with a little debate between me and my parents about how the flood was possible.
you know, where did the water come from, how did all the animals fit, etc.
of course it led nowhere and my parents came up with some strange theories like that there was "an expanse of water in the sky" and that's where all the water came from.
How do you know God didn't use Neptune?
People are so closed minded these days,
we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
Me neither breakfast of champions. I have been reading books about influence and persuasion and it has caused me to reflect that the reasons for me doing things may be more complicated (not to say completely different) than the stories I have told myself about events. In particular the work of Professor Cialdini. We like to think we make rational and logical choices, but the hard evidence(!) shows that social proof and authority are far more important influences on most important decisions most people make.
And I just wonder what implications this has for people who would attempt to persuade or convince JWs that they are wrong. Logic, reasoning and evidence are probably among the least effective tools.
we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
Actually nicolaou my reading of your post is that this is the most significant factor in your alienation from JWs:
Of course I found I couldn't have a free and open discussion about these things with my Mum or 'brothers and sisters'. I began to feel isolated and was soon on my way out.
Not the details of doctrine itself, but the culture of not being able to discuss problems. I can relate to that.
I will point out that we live in a culture that values being able to question authority and express different viewpoints. This runs right up against JW deference to the GB. If you accept the dominant values of an open society including open discussion and questioning authority, this is bound to undermine the JW belief structure. The actual points of contention are (almost) immaterial.
we like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
Cofty you say you weren't influenced by others and it was your own reading of scripture pure and simple. I don't know the details, I wasn't there. But I ask you to consider if there may have been influences you were not aware of.
I believe Dawkins is fond of saying that what religion you are is an accident of birth. You take on the beliefs of your parents and those around you. There is no avoiding it. A child of Aglicans doesn't normally grow up to be a Muslin. Similarly former JWs tend to take on the dominant religious tradition of their society.
People who leave the Witnesses are also heavily influenced by their environment. Many who leave the Witnesses claim that a pure and unbiased reading of the scriptures led them to Christ or the Catholic Church or whatever. But it's noticeable that in most cases this "pure" reading of scripture leads to the JW accepting the theology of a dominant religion in their social environment. A JW in Italy reads the Bible and returns to the Catholic mother Church. A JW in the Scottish Highlands reads the Bible and it leads him to Calvinism. A JW in England reads the Bible and it leads him to a Protestant church. A JW in Eastern Europe reads the Bible and it leads him to the orthodox faith, and so on. The common theme is that the "unbiased" reading of scripture tends to lead the JW back into the mainstream - whatever that is in their society.
It would be more impressive if a "pure" reading of scripture led a JW to accept a version of Christianity that is not dominant in his society. If a "pure" reading of scripture in Greece led someone to adopt to Calvinism or someone in Protestant Scandinavia to become Catholic, and so on. But it doesn't tend to happen that way, because people who leave the JWs are heavily influenced by their social environment. In your case you adopted Protestant Christianity which dominates our culture and was supported by the Reachout Trust in particular. This may as you say have been completely free from influence from any outside persuasion. But I just note that you didn't become an orthodox Christian or a Lutheran or an Armenian or a Quaker or Unitarian. Had you lived in societies where they dominate, your unbiased reading of scripture may have led in those directions, but you don't, and it didn't.
aaaaaand .
.. it offers absolutely nothing new.. from questions from readers in the december 2016 study edition watchtower:.
"is it proper for a brother todayto have a beard?in some cultures, a neat beardmay be acceptable and may notdetract from the kingdom mes-sage.
"Are not considered acceptable" - passive voice. Not considered acceptable by who? And why?
