Posts by slimboyfat

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

"JW's used to believe you had to be a baptised JW to be saved at Armageddon, now JW's believe baptised JW's and some who react favourably during the Great Tribulation may get saved meaning exJW's, or family members of JW' etc no longer HAVE to die prior to Armageddon to ensure they are in paradise as they now can react to the events of the Great Tribulation favourably and be saved".

So non believing relatives will have a better chance of surviving because they can still repent after the Great Tribulation has started but they would still need to repent before Armageddon in order to survive? That doesn’t sound like as good a chance as somebody who is resurrected in the new system and has 1000 years to mend their ways. If I was a believing JW I would be disappointed because it sounded like the GB were saying that non believing relatives would have the same chance whenever they died. But if it’s as you describe then wouldn’t many JWs still not wonder if non believing relatives would be better off dying and getting resurrected?

3144

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

There’s no payment for subscribers, only views. The only thing he’s done for a month is post a comedy video and somewhat disturbing conversation with his daughter. There’s a lot of mugs around, over 350 of them, is all I can say. What is the story he tells himself about how things are going? Does he imagine in his own head that he’s doing a good job and people are right to pay him? Because at one point I’m sure he really did believe he was doing “important” work. Or is he completely cynical at this point and laughing at his patrons behind their back?

Is Kim okay?

If she’s just moved on with her life that’s a good thing.

3144

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

slimboyfat

Lordy, this could drag on for years at this rate.

His cynicism in collecting money for a cause his heart is no longer in should be plain as day. I guess this whole saga has taught me there truly is a sucker born every minute, and there are those who are able and feel no compunction about making money off the gullible.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

Okay this is all rather confusing, perhaps because the Watchtower itself doesn’t make sense.

I guess you could flip it on its head and say that another way non believers could be treated the same whether they die before Armageddon or not is to reduce drastically the number of people JWs anticipate will be resurrected. That would make it equal, but it’s hardly a reason for JWs to stop worrying about non believing relatives, because it would reduce their chances of surviving all round.

Notsure, can you explain, if the change isn’t that non believers will survive Armageddon comparable to how non believers in general will be resurrected -

Then can you succinctly explain what do you think is the change?

Incidentally, not all millenarian groups anticipate that all wicked people will die at Armageddon. As I understand it, Christadelphians think the judgment will take place during the thousand year reign, not before. Armageddon is a great battle where Jesus establishes his kingdom on earth, it’s not particularly a time of judgement for the wicked. Although people will die in Armageddon, they don’t expect the wicked to be completely destroyed at Armageddon because the judgment comes later during the thousand years. Could Watchtower be moving to that kind of model?

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

If the GB member/the Watchtower is saying that people who wished relatives would die before Armageddon so they would get a chance to come into the truth in the new system no longer need to do so, then doesn’t that imply that the reason people don’t need to worry is because people like that will have as much chance of surviving Armageddon if they don’t die before than if they do die before. And if they have the same chance then that’s a pretty high chance because the expectation is that most dead people will be resurrected.

Or to put it another way, if unbelievers are not as likely to survive as those those who have died are likely to be resurrected, then people might as well go back to hoping their relatives die before Armageddon again, because they still have a better chance of making it to the new system that way. But that’s precisely what the GB member says it’s no longer necessary to think.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

In order for resurrected and current non JWs to be treated the same then non JWs would need to be in the new system and judged on their future works just the same as the unrighteous who will be resurrected.

If the new teaching is that people need to come into the truth to survive Armageddon then what has changed?

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

My mistake, I do find the phrase “heart condition” in recent Watchtowers.

Does this Watchtower talk about heart condition of survivors? If so how does this reconcile with the statement that it makes no difference when a person dies to their chances of getting into the new system?

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

As far as I know JWs don’t use the phrase “heart condition” any more. That’s old terminology. Where are you getting the idea that survival is based on “heart condition”? Is it in the latest statement and Watchtower and I missed it?

What the statement said was that an unbeliever at Armageddon has the same chance as an unbeliever being resurrected. Since JWs have long believed that billions will be resurrected (the Reasoning book speculated that the earth could cope with and feed 20 billion) it is reasonable to wonder whether the recent statement really implies that billions will survive Armageddon. If that’s not what they meant, or if they backtrack, as it stands it is a reasonable inference from what they have said.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

But it is clearly not as it makes the Big A pointless.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that if it doesn’t make sense then it can’t be what they’re saying. Is that a safe assumption from the same people who brought us the inflatable rolling generation?

They do seem to be saying that people alive at Armageddon have as good a chance of surviving as the billions who died beforehand. If they really mean that then it would mean billions surviving. Does that make any sense in view of everything else they teach about God and salvation? No, it doesn’t seem to make sense at all. But that is to state the problem, not to solve it.

144

Hailstone message AND everyone will be saved? Questions

by slimboyfat in

i’ve not been paying close attention to watchtower developments, but talking to a jw yesterday it occurred to me the society (yes, still use that term - old school) have been sending out mixed messages in recent years.

from what i gather, a few years ago the gb announced that during the great tribulation jws would be required to preach a “hailstone message of judgement” which involved telling people it was too late for them to repent and they were definitely going to be destroyed.

there were hints that this could be very soon, “any day now” preaching could stop and the hailstone message come in, kind of thing.

slimboyfat

The anticipation has always been that most who have died will be resurrected except certain cases like Pharaoh and the Pharisees.

If the same standard is applied to those who are alive at Armageddon this would seem to imply that billions probably would survive.

Presumably for them to survive the end of the thousand years they would need to convert and not follow Satan in the final rebellion, so billions could still end up being destroyed then.

That would be remarkable if that is the new position. I think it needs clarification.