Posts by slimboyfat

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

slimboyfat

Theists proclaim the necessity of belief (believe or perish) in a god as follows

I don’t believe in that kind of God. Personally I think God is greater than any of us can understand and that he is able to rescue all humans in the end - if that’s what he wants to do. And the Bible tells us in a number of places that’s exactly what he want to do. Remember this verse JWs used to quote to explain why Armageddon hasn’t arrived yet.

Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.

When I had a JW mindset I used to paraphrase that verse in my head to mean something like: “Jehovah is being patient because he wants as few people to die at Armageddon as possible”. But that’s not what the verse says. What it actually says is that Jehovah doesn’t want anyone to be destroyed but wants all to attain to repentance - not just a few, or some, or even ‘as many as possible’. It says ‘all’, plain and simple. Can God accomplish what he wants? If God wants all to be saved can he make that happen?

Universalism has a long history in the Christian tradition, from Origen in ancient times to the modern theologian and author David Bentley Hart, who makes an excellent case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_universalism

Charles Taze Russell was I believe a universalist at heart. His opponents accused him of being a universalist and he disowned the label because he couldn’t quite see that everyone would be saved according to the scriptures. But he had a much broader view of salvation than many of his contemporaries and than JWs today. The man who ‘turned a hose on hell’ ruled out eternal punishment as completely contrary to God’s character well ahead of the mainline churches who have since moved closer to his position. He reckoned pretty much everyone would get a resurrection, including Adam and Eve, and that many would accept the invitation to live in perfection. He didn’t rule out salvation in other churches. He didn’t go the final step and say that everyone would be saved, but he was closer to that position than the more narrow prospectus of modern JWs.

https://youtu.be/yunoscnbJ2k

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

slimboyfat

Why do you call the honest attempts of other people to understand the world we live in “sophistry”? Maybe I have some good ideas, maybe you have some good ideas, or less so in either case as the case may be. I don’t see what is gained by undermining the genuineness of other people when they explain how they attempt to make sense of reality. It doesn’t make any one view more likely. It comes across as a bit weak and insecure.

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

slimboyfat

I see a few possible scenarios:

1. God has a reason for letting bad things happen that I don’t understand. Just because I don’t understand it doesn’t mean there isn’t a reason. There are many things I don’t understand, or can’t understand even.

2. God let it happen because he doesn’t meet our measure of goodness.

3. There is no God, so he didn’t let it happen, it just happened by itself.

4. God will undo all suffering in the reconciliation.

5. Or something else I haven’t thought of.

Some Christians would argue that we know God is good on other grounds so that, even when we can’t explain how God could let a terrible thing happen, the other things that we know allow us to believe in God despite this serious challenge to that belief.

A possible scenario of conversation with God I imagine might be:

Person: why didn’t you save the child?

God: it’s okay he will be resurrected and have a good life in eternity.

Person: that’s not good enough, what about the suffering he had now, the life that he lost now, and people who mourned the loss of the child?

God: that’s okay, the future life will be so good no one will even care to remember the suffering of the past.

Person: that’s not good enough at all! No amount of forgetting can undo the terrible suffering here and now.

God: okay listen up. If you really want to know then this is how it is. I won’t just provide a blissful future. And I won’t just make people forget the terrible suffering of the past. What I will do instead is I will go back in time and stop the child from being killed. Is that good enough?

Person: I suppose, but why did you let it happen at all?

God: if I go back and stop it from happening then it never did happen.

Person: can you really do that? It doesn’t seem to make sense.

God: I’m God, what do you think? It’s no more difficult for me to prevent an accident last Tuesday than it is to prevent an accident next Tuesday. I’m outside time. It’s all the same to me. If I go back and stop it, then it never happened. You won’t just “forget” it, it will ever have been.

Person: then why do we live in a world full of suffering here and now?

God: well the plan is to prevent all this from happening at the time of the final reconciliation of all creation.

Person: I thought the final reconciliation was just a consolation for all the bad that has occurred.

God: it’s more complicated than that. It’s not just a consolation, or rectification, it is a complete undoing of all the bad that has occurred present and past as well as future. Not just “forgetting” about it, but actually making sure it didn’t happen at all.

Person: why didn’t you tell us this?

God: I did kind of tell you, but it is not easy for you to understand.

Person: I still don’t get it because the fact is we are suffering here and now.

God: indeed, and it can’t make sense to you how completely I will change reality, past present, and future, for the better, until I show you.

Person: I’m still skeptical how this makes sense.

God: I know.

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

slimboyfat

Looking at the NT evidence of the word “firstborn”:

In Matt 1.25 and Luke 2.7 Jesus is described as Mary’s firstborn son.

In Romans 8.29 Jesus described as the “firstborn among many brothers” in the new creation.

In Col 1.18 Jesus is called the “firstborn from the dead”.

So you can see why the straightforward reading of Col 1.15 is that Jesus truly is “the firstborn of all creation”. Origen, who described Jesus as a creature and the oldest creation, and other pre-Nicene Christians understood the phrase in its straight forward sense. Even in the fourth century dispute with Arius the tendency of Trinitarians was to argue that Col 1.15 “the firstborn of all creation” doesn’t refer to the original creation rather than attempting to deny the meaning of the word “firstborn”.

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

slimboyfat

I don’t think accusing others of psychological problems or purposely trying to mislead adds anything to your posts. You write some interesting information but the bitter tone gets in the way. I don’t accuse you of trying to distort or purposely misquoting. It would be a better exchange, and in general makes for better dialogue if you make the assumption that we are each interested in finding out the truth.

I came across the reference in Tertullian about there being a time when the Son did not exist most recently in the book Christian Beginnings: From Nazareth to Nicaea, AD 30 to 325 (London, Penguin Books: 2013) by Geza Vermes. He makes these further comments on Tertullian:

Tertullian firmly opposed the co-eternity of the Son and endeavoured to demonstrate it in a fashion prefiguring Arius in the age of Nicaea:

‘There was a time when neither sin, nor the Son co-existed with the Deity. Sin made God into a judge, and the Son made him into a Father … Just as he became Father through the Son and judge through sin, so God also became Lord by means of the creatures he had made in order to serve him.’ (Against Hermogenes 3)

Elsewhere, in conformity with earlier tradition, which echoed the New Testament, Tertullian presented Christ as inferior to God the Father. ‘Whatever was the substance of the Word that I designate as a person, I claim it for the name of the Son; and while I recognise the Son, I maintain that he is second to the Father.’ (Against Praxeas 7.9)

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

slimboyfat

I think it might be wise for Trinitarians to accommodate the idea that the divine name occurred in the New Testament into their theology because, you never know, the evidence for it might get stronger and stronger as more discoveries are made. Two hundred years ago there were no copies of the LXX with the divine name, all we had was outside evidence. Now there are a number of manuscripts with direct evidence and further corroborating outside evidence. It’s reasonable to suppose that fragments of the New Testament with the divine name may be uncovered at some point.

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

slimboyfat

Because God is in like manner a Father, and He is also a Judge; but He has not always been Father and Judge, merely on the ground of His having always been God. For He could not have been the Father previous to the Son, nor a Judge previous to sin. There was, however, a time when neither sin existed with Him, nor the Son; the former of which was to constitute the Lord a Judge, and the latter a Father. In this way He was not Lord previous to those things of which He was to be the Lord. But He was only to become Lord at some future time: just as He became the Father by the Son, and a Judge by sin, so also did He become Lord by means of those things which He had made, in order that they might serve Him.

Tertullian, Against Hermogenes 3

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0313.htm

168

Moral responsibility.

by nicolaou in

no subtlety here, it's going to be obvious where i'm going with this.

please consider the following scenario.. you're seated on a railway platform bench waiting for your train.

a high speed intercity is about to hurtle through without stopping when you see a small child running to the platforms edge!

slimboyfat

There's no reason for inaction

This is assuming the conclusion you’re driving at. We don’t know there is “no reason” why God allows things to happen. There might be a reason, there might not be a reason. We are not in a position to say with certainty.

196

would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

a good question is would you be more happy not knowing what you now know?.

were you more happy pimi?

are all the pimis more happy than the the pimos or the pomos?.

slimboyfat

Simon Conway Morris argues that evolution is evidence in favour of God’s existence.

https://youtu.be/WsCBbN-bM8E

https://whyevolutionistrue.com/2012/09/10/paleobiologist-simon-conway-morris-gives-evidence-for-god-from-evolution/

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

slimboyfat

LE should have a stab at it too, as a regular reader of the thread with inside information. What say you?