slimboyfat

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Posts by slimboyfat

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  42

  Have you ever been on a congregation picnic?

  by LostintheFog1999 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  were you ever on a congregation picnic?

  i was on several occasions.. the arrangements were often announced from the platform after the closing song and prayer by the last elder up on the platform.. sometimes it was included in the service meeting announcements as "on saturday we're meeting at 10.00am at the kingdom hall for field service, and after field service for anyone who wishes, especially for the younger ones, we will be having a congregation picnic meeting at the beach carpark on seaview road.".

  well, according to the new elders manual you won't be hearing those words again.

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  slimboyfat

  For some reason, I read this thread heading as saying: “have you ever seen a congregation panic?” and expected an unusual story to follow. A couple of times it’s caught me now. 😂
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  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

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  slimboyfat

  Jeffro you are the one who said other churches count attendees as members. This is not the case. I asked for an example, you supplied none. You now seem to be arguing that other churches have more adherents than members. Possibly, I don’t know, because ‘adherent’ needs to be defined in order to be compared. Different churches use different measurements, and they call their measurements different things.

  The point I am making, and that you originally objected to, is that JWs are doing better than most other churches. This is clearly the case whatever measure you use. You disputed this by claiming that JWs don’t present accurate growth figures, and then you referenced the relative decline (compared to the population as a whole) of JWs in the Australian census numbers between 2016 and 2021 to make your point. Great! That’s something concrete we can work with. Lets compare all the churches using your preferred data from the Australian census. Here are the results.

  Anglicans down from 3,101,200 to 2,496,300 a decrease of 604,900 or 19.5%

  Baptists up from 345,100 to 347,300 an increase of 2200 or 0.6%

  Catholics down from 5,291,800 to 5,075,900 a decrease of 215,900 or 4.1%

  Churches of Christ down from 39,600 to 35,900 a decrease of 3700 or 9.3%

  Jehovah’s Witnesses up from 82,500 to 84,400 an increase of 1900 or 2.3%

  Mormons down from 61,600 to 57,900 a decrease of 3700 or 6.0%

  Lutherans down from 174,000 to 145,900 a decrease of 28,100 or 16.1%

  Eastern Orthodox down from 582,800 to 535,500 a decrease of 47,300 or 8.1%

  Pentecostals down from 260,600 to 259,800 a decrease of 900 or 0.3%

  Presbyterian and Reformed down from 526,700 to 414,900 a decrease of 111,800 or 21.2%

  Salvation Army down from 48,900 to 35,400 a decrease of 13,500 or 27.6%

  Seventh-day Adventists up from 62,900 to 63,700 an increase of 800 or 1.3%

  Uniting Church down from 870,200 to 673,300 a decrease of 196,900 or 22.6%

  Or to put that in descending order from the group with the highest growth to the group with the largest decrease:

  Jehovah’s Witnesses + 2.3%

  Seventh-day Adventists +1.3%

  Baptists +0.6%

  Pentecostals -0.3%

  Catholics -4.1%

  Mormons -6.0%

  Eastern Orthodox -8.1%

  Churches of Christ -9.3%

  Lutherans -16.1%

  Anglicans -19.5%

  Presbyterian and Reformed -21.2%

  Uniting Church -22.6%

  Salvation Army -27.6%

  Jeffro, seriously, according to those numbers, are JWs doing better, or worse, than other Christian groups? Straightforward answer please.
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  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

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  slimboyfat

  Duplicate post
• 
  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

  1. 
  2. 
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• 

  slimboyfat

  Jeffro you are the one who said other churches count attendees as members. This is not the case. I asked for an example, you supplied none. You now seem to be arguing that other churches have more adherents than members. Possibly, I don’t know, because ‘adherent’ needs to be defined consistently in order to be compared. Different churches use different measurements and call their measurements different things.

  The point I am making, and that you originally objected to, is that JWs are doing better than most other churches. You disputed this by claiming that JWs don’t present accurate growth figures, and then you referenced the relative decline (compared to the population as a whole) of JWs in the Australian census numbers between 2016 and 2021 to make your point. Great! That’s something concrete we can work with. Lets compare all the churches using your preferred measure from the Australian census. Here are the results.

  Anglicans down from 3,101,200 to 2,496,300 a decrease of 604,900 or 19.5%

  Baptists up from 345,100 to 347,300 an increase of 2200 or 0.6%

  Catholics down from 5,291,800 to 5,075,900 a decrease of 215,900 or 4.1%

  Churches of Christ down from 39,600 to 35,900 a decrease of 3700 or 9.3%

  Jehovah’s Witnesses up from 82,500 to 84,400 an increase of 1900 or 2.3%

  Mormons down from 61,600 to 57,900 a decrease of 3700 or 6.0%

  Lutherans down from 174,000 to 145,900 a decrease of 28,100 or 16.1%

  Eastern Orthodox down from 582,800 to 535,500 a decrease of 47,300 or 8.1%

  Pentecostals down from 260,600 to 259,800 a decrease of 900 or 0.3%

  Presbyterian and Reformed down from 526,700 to 414,900 a decrease of 111,800 or 21.2%

  Salvation Army down from 48,900 to 35,400 a decrease of 13,500 or 27.6%

  Seventh-day Adventists up from 62,900 to 63,700 an increase of 800 or 1.3%

  Uniting Church down from 870,200 to 673,300 a decrease of 196,900 or 22.6%

  Or to put that in descending order from the group with the highest growth to the group with the largest decrease:

  Jehovah’s Witnesses + 2.3%

  Seventh-day Adventists +1.3%

  Baptists +0.6%

  Pentecostals -0.3%

  Catholics -4.1%

  Mormons -6.0%

  Eastern Orthodox -8.1%

  Churches of Christ -9.3%

  Lutherans -16.1%

  Anglicans -19.5%

  Presbyterian and Reformed -21.2%

  Uniting Church -22.6%

  Salvation Army -27.6%

  Jeffro, according to the census numbers, do you think JWs are doing better or worse than other Christian groups?
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  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

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  slimboyfat

  There's always different reasons for numbers. Some years ago JWs we're growing in Norway. Reason many JWs moved to Norway cause there was more job opportunities. Puerto Rico was other way around. Many moved to mainland and numbers of JWs was staggering. Either way you cut things. Only reason watchtower is not dropping massively in numbers are the strict DF rules. Remove DF arrangements and oh boy the drop they gonna have.

  1. Other religious adherents move around too, this is hardly unique to JWs. (Hundreds of thousands of Polish Catholics moved to the UK in the past 20 years, for example)

  2. A JW who moves to Norway, Puerto Rico etc., by definition has moved away from somewhere else. So while they are added to the Norway or Puerto Rico count, they are subtracted from the count in whatever country they came from.

  Movement between countries, obviously, is no explanation for the growth in JW numbers worldwide, overall, unless we posit extra terrestrials.

  Edit because I’ve run out of posts:

  I don’t know any religious group that defines membership as attendance. Can you give an example? It’s not true of the groups I am familiar with. In fact many groups, such as Adventists and Catholics, maintain separate datasets for membership and attendance, precisely because they are not the same thing. Others don’t regularly publish attendance figures (though these may be gathered internally) such as the Church of Scotland which only publishes membership statistics not attendance numbers. When independent counts of attendance are conducted (see the work of Peter Brierley) they show that attendance at Church of Scotland churches is well under half the membership count.

  I don’t know where you are coming from with this mistaken assumption that other groups count attendees as members.
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  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

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  slimboyfat

  Have you got any explanation why the New Zealand census confirms that JWs are growing compared with other Christian groups? Or why censuses in general produce higher JW figures than the annual report, and have done for decades?

  As I mentioned, even if inclined to reject Watchtower figures altogether (not a reasonable position in any case) census returns alone show that JWs have better growth than most other groups, and in fact most other groups are declining rapidly.

  As I recall your argument (feel free to provide a link) it leans heavily on the fact that the publisher number includes unbaptised publishers as well as baptised JWs. But as everyone knows, JWs have always done this, it is nothing new. You didn’t give any compelling reason why this measure would give an increased rate of growth for any length of time. Plus, as I pointed out above, if somehow it did produce an inflated measure of growth over time the publisher count would drift above other measures of membership. This has not happened, as census returns show.
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  169

  Are the statistics out yet?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  isn’t it about time they released the report for the service year?

  or have they stopped publishing it?

  did they released selected figures at the annual meeting as they usually do, such as the memorial attendance or record number of pioneers?

  1. 
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  slimboyfat

  As I explained last year Jeffro, it’s simply impossible to inflate the “growth rate” for long periods of time without the two measure drifting apart from one another. If the growth rate was consistently overstated for many years you would end up with JWs claiming a lot more members than other measures produce. This has not happened, ever.

  Or look at it another way, and ignore Watchtower figures altogether and what do we find? As with the latest New Zealand data, they show that JWs are growing while almost all other Christian groups are declining. The only other Christian group with any significant growth in New Zealand is the Seventh-day Adventists. The Baptists are remaining about level, and most other groups are declining heavily. These data are derived without looking at Watchtower’s own figures at all.

  Plus there are aspects of the Watchtower report that are likely to be highly accurate, such as number of congregations, which can be independently verified, and the number of baptisms, which is likely to be accurately recorded, and is not subject to change in definition of what “baptism” means.

  Your only argument boils down to the claim that the definition of “publisher” this year may be a bit more liberal than the definition of “publisher” last year, and granted in some individual years this is probably the case, such as when the 15 minute rule was introduced in the early 2000s. Over the long term, however, the number of members that JWs claim remains much lower than the number of self identified JWs in national censuses, and often by significant amounts. Some countries, especially in South America, have close to double the number self identified JWs compared with the Watchtower “publisher” count. This is in stark contrast with Mormons who often claim twice, three times, even four times as many members in their official count compared with census results.
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  17

  Research project: A study designed to explore the experience of leaving the Jehovah’s Witnesses

  by Researcher2023 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  as part of a psychology msc research project, i am looking for participants to take part in a study designed to explore the experience of leaving the jehovah’s witnesses.. former witnesses who were raised in the organisation will be asked a few questions about their reasons for leaving, their experience of leaving, and how their life has changed since leaving.. taking part involves completing an interview over the internet.

  according to research needs, the number of questions asked in each interview may vary.

  the interview will take between 5 – 90 minutes depending on the questions asked and the level of detail you wish to provide.. your participation will remain confidential and anonymous, and it is completely voluntary so that you may withdraw at any time up to two weeks after the interview.

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  slimboyfat

  A new article related to this topic just published

  Luther, R. (2022). What Happens to Those Who Exit Jehovah’s Witnesses: An Investigation of the Impact of Shunning. Pastoral Psychology, 1-16.

  https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11089-022-01051-x
  

  
  
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  40

  Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

  by smiddy3 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don`t think so .

  hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

  with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

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  slimboyfat

  What I mean by saying that God is not a thing is that he cannot be compared with things in the world. He is not different in terms of being older, wiser, bigger, or any other comparison with humans or other beings. He is different entirely so that comparisons are not possible. The language of creation or beginning does not apply to God, that’s a misunderstanding about what the concept of God is.
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  40

  Is it Logical To Beleive In A Creator - GOD ? In This Scientific Age ?

  by smiddy3 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i don`t think so .

  hasn`t science ,astronomy ,time , .....proven it an illogical beleif ?.

  with the information about this solar system and it`s planets ,other stars and their planets that we have information about ,and the fact that no god has ever revealed him/her self in any shape or form 'there is no evidence that a creator / god has ever existed.. except in the minds of humans who want to control a section of humanity .. the fact that religions rely on "you have to have faith" to beleive in a god ,surely is a cop out.. i look forward to your comments .. and a happy new year to you all..

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  slimboyfat

  The question of course that we are all avoiding comes down to if there was nothing to begin with and GOD decided to create the universe and us on earth where did he ? come from ?

  This question assumes that God is like a being in the universe that requires an explanation. But the whole point of “God” is that he is outside time and space and is self existent. The question “where did God come from?” sounds like a question about God, but in effect all the question really means is that the person asking it has ruled out the possibility that God exists from the start. So when a person says “where did God come from?” what this really means is “I don’t believe a self existent being can exist”. That’s a position one is free to take, but it doesn’t help to settle the question of whether there is a God.

  If I say Argentina have the best football team, you could ask: “which country is better at football than Argentina”? But all you are really doing is disputing the assertion that Argentina is the best team. Similarly when somebody says: “where did God come from, or who created God?” all they are really saying is, “I don’t believe in God”, nothing more.