Posts by slimboyfat

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

The prices Hassan charges a few wealthy clients for his exclusive services is really the least interesting thing. How about discussing the actual content of his book? To which there are upsides and downsides as I wrote above.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Weak answer. It's like saying no medical student should ever be interested in how much a doctor gets paid. People, complex beings as we are, are perfectly capable of being motivated by more than one thing at once.

Hassan clearly is interested in helping people. He's also interested in making money. Good luck to him.

If there was any suggestion that he pressures people to buy services they can't afford or he has hidden charges that would clearly be wrong. I haven't seen anyone suggest that. He appears to be charging wealthy people a high price for an exclusive service. Such is the capitalist world all over. That's the system we operate under. If you don't like it attack the system, not the person playing by the rules.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

It is not unreasonable to suggest that his main motivation might be wealth

So what? And can't it be both wealth and helping people? If he can charge $400 and people are willing to pay it, then why on earth should he charge $200 or $100?

What self-employed person tells a customer to pay less that they are prepared to pay? What employee tells his boss to cut his pay?

Are we going to go after lawyers and doctors next?

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Yes Ruby as a fully paid up poststructuralist I have problems with the idea of an "authentic" personality. We are multifaceted, complex and contradictory, at least I am (no I'm not).

To be fair to Hassan he heavily qualifies the idea of authentic personality opposed to cult personality. He spends a lot of time talking about looking for good aspects of cult experience, drawing upon it.

I think you hit upon the major problem of JWs looking to Hassan for advice or guidance. He is set up to help families rescue children who get messed up with cults as inexperienced young adulls. This may apply to a few young people who become JWs but it is not the typical scenario. Many JWs are trapped as JWs because of family not despite them.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Maybe, maybe not but they certainly need to be dissuaded from spreading the lies that tear families apart. So yes, even the happy, functional JWs need to be, if not rescued, made aware.
We mustn't give them a free pass.

You make a great point. The people who live happy lives as JWs do so, to some extent, at the expense of those who are discarded and shunned. So I can see an argument for confronting even happy JWs because their practices harm a minority who are mistreated.

But still I have a bias toward just letting happy JWs get on with being happy JWs. These are difficlt issues to weigh up. I don't think there are easy answers either way.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Joe, Mr Hassan is a self-employed businessman. As far as I know he never claimed to be a charity or any kind of volunteer. He offers a service. If it's good people will pay for it. If not they won't. If you thought he was some kind of self-less do good Saint who is not interested in making money then that is your mistake not his.

He is nothing like JWs. JWs try to control people, what they can read, who they can talk to, what they can do, plus take their time and money for the privilege.

Hassan helps people leave such control. And he charges money to help people get family out of cults.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Ruby I think you are correct JWs are very different from the Moonies and no where near as bad judging by his experience. The problem with lumping all such groups together is it can seem as if they are all the same. JWs do not engage in sleep deprivation or group confessions and blackmail or sex with cult leaders or any of the more extreme cult behaviour.

What they do on a massive scale is information control, shunning and stigmatisation. These are harmful practices that Hassan fairly highlights in relation to JWs.

I agree that Hassan's book is not ideal for JWs because an intervention type scenario (he promotes a milder, "strategic" form of this now) is not terribly appropriate for JWs.

Unlike many cult groups, I think the uncomfortable fact (for some angry former JWs) is that many JWs are very happy as JWs and they function well in normal society. Do such people need to be rescued? You could argue they believe nonsense and they could do better in life. But that's true of many people. It's no warrant to go meddling in their lives.

On the other hand many people suffer as JWs for various reasons and could do with a helping hand out of the organisation. Reaching and helping those ones, without harassing the many JWs who are happy as they are, is bound to be a tremendous challenge for any sort of activist interested in thoughtful engagment.

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

Why?

98

Steve Hassan. Can some one verify if this is true.

by joe134cd in

https://culteducation.com/group/1289-general-information/8227-disclaimer-regarding-steve-hassan.html.

slimboyfat

The review of Freedom of Mind linked on the page was interesting. I recently read the book so it was fresh to me. My opinion is that Hassan is a mixed bag, but mainly good.

Some of the criticisms of his book are just petty. The claim of plagiarism is unfounded. Hassan may not use academic footnotes and bibliography, but he is more than clear about using Lifton's ideas and others.

The criticisn that he uses the discredited term "mind control" instead of the legal term "undue influence" is plain weird. Because Hassan himself acknowledges in the book that "undue influence" is the better term and he has now started using it instead.

The observation that Hassan's focus is on families helping cult victims is spot on. His book is no help whatever to people in cults who don't have families that want to help them out. The book offers little hope for such people, but it never pretended it did.

The reviewer is probably correct that Hassan exaggerates the growth of cults today and it's true he offers no proof for such assertions. And yes he probably casts his net as widely as possible to make his book relevant to as many people as possible because he wants sales. So what?

I find the accusation that Hassan uses hypnosis and NLP to be obnoxious because he acknowledges that he used them in the past, was concerned about them ethically, and has now condemned both. His statements on this are quite clear and the review obscures rather than explains Hassan's stance on this.

The question of authority and legitimacy is interesting and difficult. The reviewer raises relevant questions about Hassan never being used as an expert witness and about qualifications. Many would say that Hassan's status as expert derives from his experience leaving a cult and many years helping others to do the same. He also has relevant academic qualifications in counselling I don't think are disputed.

I broadly agree with the criticism of Hassan's use of the term "cult personality" as opposed to real or authentic personality. Some people may find this way of viewing things helpful to some extent. Personally I don't. The reviewer says these descriptions have no "scientific" basis. What they mean is that it's not standard terminology in the discourse. Fair enough, but if you want to get into the scientific basis of psychological discourse in general that's a whole other can of worms.

Frankly the least interesting accusation against him I find are his prices. I can not envisage me ever paying for his services or anything like them. But what he charges is between him and his clients. If he charges too much then don't buy, simple as that. Watch a YouTube video instead.

He seems to me like a genuinely nice guy who wants to help other people. He also makes apparently a good living from offering his advice and guidance to people with a lot of money. Too much for some people's taste, but no one is forcing them to buy. Good luck to him.

583

What is the purpose of life?

by slimboyfat in

while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

slimboyfat

This thread was just waiting for the arrival of Sir82!