slimboyfat

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Posts by slimboyfat

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  405

  Origin of Life

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

  as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

  there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

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  slimboyfat

  Your initial post asked what the response would be if scientists managed to demonstrate the emergence of life. I pointed out that a recent WT brochure answers this question.

  Think of the challenge facing researchers who feel that life arose by chance. They have found some amino acids that also appear in living cells. In their laboratories, they have, by means of carefully designed and directed experiments, manufactured other more complex molecules. Ultimately, they hope to build all the parts needed to construct a “simple” cell. Their situation could be likened to that of a scientist who takes naturally occurring elements; transforms them into steel, plastic, silicone, and wire; and constructs a robot. He then programs the robot to be able to build copies of itself. By doing so, what will he prove? At best, that an intelligent entity can create an impressive machine.
  Similarly, if scientists ever did construct a cell, they would accomplish something truly amazing—but would they prove that the cell could be made by accident? If anything, they would prove the very opposite, would they not?

  The same brochure also states the "life from life" principle. And they argue on the next page that such a scenario would demonstrate their point.

  If the chemicals in the experiment represent the earth’s early environment and the molecules produced represent the building blocks of life, whom or what does the scientist who performed the experiment represent? Does he or she represent blind chance or an intelligent entity?

  What the WT objects to is the idea that life could arise by its own by "chance". Scientists creating life in a laboratory would not meet this test in their view. The contrast is between an "intelligent entity" creating life and it arising by accident or by "chance".

  All scientific evidence to date indicates that life can come only from previously existing life. To believd that even a “simple” living cell arose by chance from nonliving chemicals requires a huge leap of faith.

  https://download-a.akamaihd.net/files/media_books/d0/lf_E.pdf
  
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  405

  Origin of Life

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

  as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

  there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

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  slimboyfat

  Ruby said WT don't teach that the spirit is a force?

  Jws literally believe that god made Adams body out of clay and then infused it with an ethereal force called spirit. What could possibly be more irrational or anti scientific?

  JWs certainly believe in the supernatural but it is a matter of degree. There is a spectrum from mysticism to rationalism. The reformation, for example, is widely interpreted as being a step away from mysticism, and toward rationalism, as was the adoption of monotheism two millennia previously. Protestants still believed in the Bible and the supernatural, but they got rid of saints and icons and a lot of the mythical aspects that had grown up. At the extreme rational end of the mythical to rational spectrum you've got Unitarians.

  No one is saying JWs deny the supernatural. But they are definitely toward the rational rather than the mystical end of the spectrum. They believe that reality can be understood by rational deduction and reading the Bible, not by mystical experiences or pilgrimages or miraculous occurrences.
  
  
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  10

  Self Delusion

  by Coded Logic in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  once upon a time there was a "kiai master" who trained his students how to knock people over - no touch - with purely the power of his chi.

  how he came to think he actually had telekinetic powers - or how his students became accomplices in his self delusion - i have no idea.

  but he was so convinced he could actually do these things he issued a challenge and put up $5,000 for any martial artist who could beat him.

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  slimboyfat

  That was an intersting watch, and read.

  I'm curious about the follow up that explores the reaction of his students to his defeat? You'd think they'd suddenly see sense and abandon their master. But instead cognitive dissonance kicks in and they explain the defeat in various ways: it was bad energy at work; or did the master lose on purpose; is he trying to teach us an important lesson by deliberately losing? Their faith and devotion to the master is thus made even stronger!

  Such is life.
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  18

  Mouthy's Funeral (video)

  by mouthys_other_granddaughter in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for those interested, this is the video of mouthy's (grace) funeral from september 8, 2016. https://youtu.be/yvmiwo0ycds.

  thanks again everybody for the kind words about her - she will be sorely missed by our family as i know she will be by many of you too!

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  slimboyfat

  Thanks that was good to see. Sorry for your loss, you have a nice family.

  Is Nancy on the forum? I liked that.
  
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  36

  Easier to be a JW now?

  by Xanthippe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  reading konceptual's account of talking to cart 'witnesses' and it reminded me that when we left in '89 we thought the religion would do one of two things.

  get more hardline, consequently lose members and eventually come to an end in some way.

  or ease up on the members, fewer rules, less fs time, less meetings, just to keep them in.. all the recent apostate stuff, treatment of dfed kids and the hardline attitude to people who leave or try to fade has confused me, made me think they are harder on the r+f., but i don't think this is true.

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  slimboyfat

  Didn't they pretend for a while that the reason for dropping the Book Stody Groups was so families could have a Bible Study night instead? Do they even talk about that anyd more?
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  583

  What is the purpose of life?

  by slimboyfat in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  while reading the magazines the other day it occurred to me that jws never really had a very good answer to that question.

  because it was aimed at young people and it said something along the lines, "if you believe in god you have a purpose, but if you don't believe in god your life has no purpose or meaning".

  i think that is a faulty analysis of the situation.

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  slimboyfat

  The other Homo became extinct

  Sounds like a fragment from an anti-gay tirade. ;-)
  
  
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  36

  Easier to be a JW now?

  by Xanthippe in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  reading konceptual's account of talking to cart 'witnesses' and it reminded me that when we left in '89 we thought the religion would do one of two things.

  get more hardline, consequently lose members and eventually come to an end in some way.

  or ease up on the members, fewer rules, less fs time, less meetings, just to keep them in.. all the recent apostate stuff, treatment of dfed kids and the hardline attitude to people who leave or try to fade has confused me, made me think they are harder on the r+f., but i don't think this is true.

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  slimboyfat

  Partly I'm thinking my eleven family members still in, one just a baby, may not make it out as it's getting easier to treat it like a church.
  
  

  The churches that are emptying?
  

  A lot of social science evidence suggests that the stricter a church is, the better it grows or retains members. Liberal churches that make few demands of adherents are in free fall decline in many countries.

  I understand your concern that relaxing the requirements may make people more likely to stay. But the evidence suggests otherwise. The less churches ask of their followers the less likely their followers are to stay active.

  However it's possible that relaxing the rules and requirements may make JWs more inclined to drift away rather than make a firm break. But their harder lines on education and shunning former members seem designed to stop that.
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  19

  Awake! Magazine April 22 1970

  by pale.emperor in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  was doing some research this evening and i think ive found possibly the most damaging awake magazine issue the jw's could have printed.

  april 22nd 1970. you can download the entire 1970 volume here: http://da-ip.getmyip.com:8080/pdf/old%20publications/?sort=d.

  in this issue, the watchtower calls other religions on their hypocrisy for changing doctrine, upbeat music in their services, the clergy meddling in worldly affairs (un anyone?

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  slimboyfat

  Is this the magazine that lambasts the Catholic Church for changing its mind about eating fish on a Friday? Talk about straining the gnat and gulping the camel: organ transplants, vaccination, alternative service, generation, blood fractions...
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  405

  Origin of Life

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

  as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

  there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

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  slimboyfat

  Ha! I just noticed that Holden made the mistake of making JWs out to be Young Earth creationists in that quote. He got a number of facts wrong about JWs, including mixing up Raymond and Fred Franz. Oops. Nevertheless he makes a number of good analytical observations. In particular his argument that JWs as a phenomenon represent the longing for certainty for some, in an increasinly uncertain and pluralistic world.
• 
  405

  Origin of Life

  by cofty in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

  as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

  there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

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  2. 
  3. 
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  slimboyfat

  Ruby is correct, JW rationalism is a dominant aspect of JW ideology that academics have explored. This doesn't mean JWs reject the supernatural as such. But much more than comparable Chrisitan groups, JWs go out of their way to portray God and their religious life in rational terms. Rational arguments lie behind the rejection of hell and the Trinity, for example, as well as omnipresence and foreordination. They are cessationists, and even in Bible stories, they seek naturalistic explanations for "supernatural" events (such as the sun standing still). See for example the chapter "Rational Means to Rational Ends" in Jehovah's Witnesses: Portrait of A Contemporary Religious Movement by Andrew Holden. And his essay here:

  http://www.lancaster.ac.uk/fass/resources/sociology-online-papers/papers/holden-peering-through-the-watch-tower.pdf
  

  The Witnesses pose a challenge to traditional religion, not least because they undermine the beliefs and rituals of established churches.[ix] Their rational system of beliefs equips them with strategies for recruitment and enables them to prove beyond all doubt that their theology is the word of God. The contrast between this and mystical religion manifests itself in visual imagery and styles of worship. Biblical texts are consulted not only for the substantiation of doctrines but as a blueprint for everyday conduct. Scriptural literalism is a rational means by which the world and its problems can be explained. The Witnesses believe that Jehovah created the world in seven days and intended Adam and Eve to live in a state of eternal happiness. However, it is as though they believe that since the fall, he has gone into semi- retirement until such time that humankind reaches the point of its own destruction. This is perhaps one of the reasons they spend little time in prayer.