God doesn't exist, the bastard - Sartre
slimboyfat
JoinedPosts by slimboyfat
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52
People hate God?
by looter init is a pain that certain individuals pride themselves on hating god, who created everything.
like it's understandable that you choose to not believe in him because of your selfishness or thinking skills but to hate him is forcing it a bit.
i'm very thankful that those such as myself have the courage to believe in the lord.
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57
How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
by slimboyfat inwe like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
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slimboyfat
Well actually, OutLaw, I would argue otherwise.
My experience and reading indicates to me that JWs tend to leave JWs, not because their beliefs have been refuted, but because the beliefs and practice of being a JW have been displaced by their needs being met elsewhere.
People make new friends, join a new club, meet a new partner, start a new career, move to a new location, or start education. These are the life events that tend to precipitate leaving JWs - other than being forced out.
So if we are really interested in persuading JWs to leave (and I'm not sure we should be, I'm just following the argument through) then the most important thing to do would be to demonstrate how leaving is viable and how others have done it successfully. Logical arguments about doctrine might be intellectually stimulating, not to mention psychologically reinforcing for people who have already left or decided to leave, but don't play much role in the decusion itself.
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Did the flood happen?
by BlackWolf inso we were talking about noah for our family worship tonight and it ended with a little debate between me and my parents about how the flood was possible.
you know, where did the water come from, how did all the animals fit, etc.
of course it led nowhere and my parents came up with some strange theories like that there was "an expanse of water in the sky" and that's where all the water came from.
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slimboyfat
How do you know God didn't use Neptune?
People are so closed minded these days,
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57
How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
by slimboyfat inwe like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
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slimboyfat
Me neither breakfast of champions. I have been reading books about influence and persuasion and it has caused me to reflect that the reasons for me doing things may be more complicated (not to say completely different) than the stories I have told myself about events. In particular the work of Professor Cialdini. We like to think we make rational and logical choices, but the hard evidence(!) shows that social proof and authority are far more important influences on most important decisions most people make.
And I just wonder what implications this has for people who would attempt to persuade or convince JWs that they are wrong. Logic, reasoning and evidence are probably among the least effective tools.
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How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
by slimboyfat inwe like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
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slimboyfat
Actually nicolaou my reading of your post is that this is the most significant factor in your alienation from JWs:
Of course I found I couldn't have a free and open discussion about these things with my Mum or 'brothers and sisters'. I began to feel isolated and was soon on my way out.
Not the details of doctrine itself, but the culture of not being able to discuss problems. I can relate to that.
I will point out that we live in a culture that values being able to question authority and express different viewpoints. This runs right up against JW deference to the GB. If you accept the dominant values of an open society including open discussion and questioning authority, this is bound to undermine the JW belief structure. The actual points of contention are (almost) immaterial.
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How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
by slimboyfat inwe like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
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slimboyfat
Cofty you say you weren't influenced by others and it was your own reading of scripture pure and simple. I don't know the details, I wasn't there. But I ask you to consider if there may have been influences you were not aware of.
I believe Dawkins is fond of saying that what religion you are is an accident of birth. You take on the beliefs of your parents and those around you. There is no avoiding it. A child of Aglicans doesn't normally grow up to be a Muslin. Similarly former JWs tend to take on the dominant religious tradition of their society.
People who leave the Witnesses are also heavily influenced by their environment. Many who leave the Witnesses claim that a pure and unbiased reading of the scriptures led them to Christ or the Catholic Church or whatever. But it's noticeable that in most cases this "pure" reading of scripture leads to the JW accepting the theology of a dominant religion in their social environment. A JW in Italy reads the Bible and returns to the Catholic mother Church. A JW in the Scottish Highlands reads the Bible and it leads him to Calvinism. A JW in England reads the Bible and it leads him to a Protestant church. A JW in Eastern Europe reads the Bible and it leads him to the orthodox faith, and so on. The common theme is that the "unbiased" reading of scripture tends to lead the JW back into the mainstream - whatever that is in their society.
It would be more impressive if a "pure" reading of scripture led a JW to accept a version of Christianity that is not dominant in his society. If a "pure" reading of scripture in Greece led someone to adopt to Calvinism or someone in Protestant Scandinavia to become Catholic, and so on. But it doesn't tend to happen that way, because people who leave the JWs are heavily influenced by their social environment. In your case you adopted Protestant Christianity which dominates our culture and was supported by the Reachout Trust in particular. This may as you say have been completely free from influence from any outside persuasion. But I just note that you didn't become an orthodox Christian or a Lutheran or an Armenian or a Quaker or Unitarian. Had you lived in societies where they dominate, your unbiased reading of scripture may have led in those directions, but you don't, and it didn't.
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Beards mentioned again in magazine!
by neat blue dog inaaaaaand .
.. it offers absolutely nothing new.. from questions from readers in the december 2016 study edition watchtower:.
"is it proper for a brother todayto have a beard?in some cultures, a neat beardmay be acceptable and may notdetract from the kingdom mes-sage.
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slimboyfat
"Are not considered acceptable" - passive voice. Not considered acceptable by who? And why?
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61
Did the flood happen?
by BlackWolf inso we were talking about noah for our family worship tonight and it ended with a little debate between me and my parents about how the flood was possible.
you know, where did the water come from, how did all the animals fit, etc.
of course it led nowhere and my parents came up with some strange theories like that there was "an expanse of water in the sky" and that's where all the water came from.
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slimboyfat
Leolaia argued that to accept the flood you need to reject almost every branch of science.
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/166221/flood?page=2#3077786
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How do we know JWs are wrong and how do we convince others JWs are wrong: logic versus persuasion
by slimboyfat inwe like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs.
no more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of jws.
we reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence.
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slimboyfat
We like to think we are logical and have good reasons for for our beliefs. No more so than when it comes to our reasons for rejecting the truth claims of JWs.
We reject their version of history, such as the date of the fall of Jerusalem, because it doesn't agree with the historical evidence. We reject their claim that we are living in the time of the end because there are not more wars, famines, diseases or earthquakes now that at other times in history. We reject their interpretation of the "generation" of Matthew 24 because it doesn't make sense contextually, linguistically, or logically. We reject their version of creationism because the evidence shows that life evolved slowly by natural selection.
But it seems to me that while these are some of the reasons we might give for rejecting JW beliefs, what actually persuades us to reject those beliefs in the first place is often quite different.
One of the most important aspects of persuasion is social proof. We see other people leaving JWs and this persuades us that there are good reasons for leaving JWs. In logical terms this is a fallacy known as the bandwagon argument or argumentum ad populum. In this sense, it is the very existence of this site, its popularity, and the number of stories of leaving JWs it contains, which gives it persuasive power in drawing people away from JWs. Not the detailed doctrinal or historical arguments, but the stories of leaving, their volume and relatability.
Another important fallacy involved in persuasion is the genetic fallacy. Maybe others have had a similar experience of studying something for a long time to try to work out if it is true. You make arguments in your head for and against and go round in circles. This can go on a long time, but it's when you realise the history behind a particular JW truth claim that a lightbulb goes on and you realise it just cannot be true. Take 1914 for example and now you can get bogged down in translation issues, astronomical data, ancient cuneiform. You can get incredibly detailed if you want to spend days and weeks researching this. On the other hands just a few key peculiarities of the history of the doctrine can psychologically undermine it much more than empirical data. For example the fact the size of the pyramid was used to support 1914, that the date was changed from 606 BC to 607 BC to make it fit, that Russell got the date from other Adventists, that president Knorr said he didn't necessarily believe it, that they say Satan was kicked out of heaven in September/October but World War 1 started in August already... this could be a long list.
So often it's the historical circumstances of a teaching that undermines it more than logical arguments for and against. Refusing blood transfusion arose when donating blood was patriotic during wartime and vaccines were also stigmatised. Disfellowshipping started around the time Olin Moyle was kicked out of the religion and hardened following Raymond Franz's departure. Psychologically these details seem to harm belief in these doctrines more than a deep consideration of scriptures or arguments or logic.
Another thing that often persuades us JWs are wrong is the sheer weight of expert opinion that JWs are wrong about key issues. People are hard wired to respect authority and expert opinion. JWs do an excellent job of neutralising this in their literature by 1) arguing that not all experts reject their views such as about evolution and 2) providing their own experts to support their claims. When we were naive JWs we often assumed that experts were simply not in possession of all the facts. If they read the Creation book or considered things dipassionately they'd realise they are wrong to believe evolution. However if we expose ourselves to books that explain evolution clearly we realise that experts are well aware of the type of arguments JWs make and they do not find them compelling. We also find out that experts JWs claim are on their side are either being misrepresented or their credentials are not what they are cracked up to be. So we reject JW beliefs because they are supported by dubious means. We didn't realise how much expert opinion weighs against JWs because we were discouraged from reading such matters or studying them. So when we realise experts reject JW claims directly and unitedly this does a huge amount to undermine belief in JW teachings.
From personal experience I have noticed that arguing with a JW never convinces them they are wrong. If you want to convince a JW you need to persuade them not refute them. This requires a very illogical approach as explained above.
Having said that, while persuasion might be more effective than refutation, it is still not very effective. JWs will often only be convinced JWs are wrong when such a conclusion aligns with their own interests.
Logical arguments only work with people are are already convinced. Amd persuasion only works with people who want to be persuaded.
Displacement may be more effective than either persuasion or refutation. In other words, instead of arguing JWs are wrong, or undermining JWs by appealing to authority, the genetic fallacy or bandwagon effect, don't say anything about JWs at all. Ignore the subject and suggest doing something alternative instead of the ministry. Then instead of the meeting. Then make it regular. Maybe the best way to win an argument with JWs is to avoid the argument.
Just some ideas. What do you think?
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How many JWs actually died in Nazi camps
by dogon inthe jws have tried to pad the number of jws in camps.
how many actually went and how many died?
can you site the source also?
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slimboyfat
I have read Garbe's book, all 600 or something pages.
It may be true that some JWs were treated well by some Nazis who regarded them well. Just as Bill O'Reilly may be technically correct that the slaves who built the Whitehouse were well fed. It's still a stupid comment to make.