Posts by what_is_truth

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

however, it is the trinity doctrine (written up at the council of Nicea 325, by men) that says they are seperate, yet the same being. The bible never says that, written in that manner. Every passage people use to prove it, from the bible, falls short of saying it in black and white.

I think you should concider just what is being said even if it isn't in a prefered manner.

Job 40God's Power and Wisdom
1 Moreover the LORD answered Job, and said:

2 "Shall the one who contends with the Almighty correct Him?
He who rebukes God, let him answer it."

Job's Response to God
3 Then Job answered the LORD and said:

4 "Behold, I am vile;
What shall I answer You?
I lay my hand over my mouth.
5 Once I have spoken, but I will not answer;
Yes, twice, but I will proceed no further."

I put these verses up just so we can learn that from Job we shouldn't really be correcting how God does things, complaining or whatever. We can't understand why he does them like that becuause we don't have his knowledge and so we shoulod just take what he has given.

Acts 17: 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so.

This verse just shows how we should search the scriptures for truth. Its good thing to do to ask yourself if this is what you are doing!? John 5 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

I cam across this one and I thought I'd put it in. Just thought was interesting how even though the person searched the scripture they can still get it so wrong..in this case the jews with Jesus..think hard! Pray hard!

And Truth, you're right I owe you a long one with scripture to back it up. However, today there is no way I can do this. But when I have time, I will sit down with what I do have. Deal?

Certainly a deal. I just want to make sure your searching! lol would like you to find truth. I think its so important! For example might I suggest for Jesus not to be part of the Holy Trinity would make him a blasphemer and a liar!?...based on things he said...I'l develop on that if asked..but im way to do something else for now! bye!

18

If The Bible Is Truly The Word Of God...

by exjdub in

why would he leave so many loose ends?

believe me, despite some of my comments about religion and my feelings about the bible, i do examine myself and my thinking process all of the time.

i really do think deeply about my life and the lives of my family, and i really try to examine how i feel.

what_is_truth_7

Hey I'm gona attempt to answer these questions from my view..

If the Bible is really the word of God, why would he allow manuscripts etc. to be destroyed or lost? when you have so many translations of the same book, many which contradict each other, wouldn't it be critical to have those preserved by the Almighty?

The Bible tells us his word will remain in some verse..it refers to flowers or something! lol I'l look it up when I get home.

So this isn't a verse I believe would have translation issues at all btw. So we can be sure the correct word is out there somewhere...we just got to find it...and we are told to search the scriptures and test beliefs so...guess this one is up to us..

Aswell there is an enemy..the devil...who I think could be held responsible for the origin of all the lies

and also free will would come into it..lol..but lets not start there!

If God's name is so important, why would he allow the pronunciation to be lost?

I've never even came across this thought even before....but the good thing is I know its not really important to the main message of God to us folks down on earth from all I've read in scripture.?!

How can a book be inspired by God, and yet, be so vague in so many areas...especially in connection with the afterlife, or hope for the dead? When I read of those things, I see the views of the men who wrote. God didn't inspire them to see what the afterlife would REALLY be like.

Its not vague...maybe your just not studying it enough...look at the bible from the view of not letting contradictions in...if your beliefs are based on this way of looking at things you'll be great. The only thing that is hard to get is a picture in your head of what heaven and hell will be like..why? Because they are beyond what we can concieve! How to get to both is easy to understand though.

If prophecy is there to help people see the "sign" of the time of the end, why is it so confusing and there is no clear interpretation? And how would you ever be able to verify a true prophet?

If you take a look into all thats going on in isreal and look at prophecies I believe its profound..though im not very eduacated there. I think the weather is a big sign. Them prophesies were not made anyway so we wod know with any preciseness when Jesus would come back anyway..I believe they were to kick us into action when we saw it coming closer and closer (think of things said in bible like compulsions at child birth..all these things are happening more and more with less time inbetweeen..war,natural disasters etc). They were to push us into a mindset that was not ignorant..and also to be a proof onto God as well. anyway thats my thoughts.

A true prophet would be walking as well as talking what he believed..would be a holy man of God...and it has always came across to me clearly when someone is holy!

There message would not contradict the canon of scripture

Don't know why I'm even say this because I believe the canon is closed.

7

Pagan Cross vs. Christian Cross

by Gerard in

6. cross: jesus did not die on a cross.

he died on a pole, or a stake.

the greek word translated "cross" in many bibles meant just one piece of timber.

what_is_truth_7

I'm pretty sure the bible has a description somewhere of the cross which should clear this up...Il look when I'm home

P.s. PRETTY PICTURES! THANKS!

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

right! Time to write it all again!

And you say the "trinity teaches the father and son are distinct persons". The dogma of the trinity teaches that, not the bible...which is our only source to go from. I know you'll say the bible does teach that, but again, only if you believe in the trinity. Do you understand what I mean?

Hey you! settle down lol. Any wild comments like this and you have to back it up! :p. I understand but the bible shows the trinity and it is unavoidable I'm finding as I look into it more!

I'm able to refute alot of the trinity....

I think you should do this with all the passages provided so far then..yeah it will take a long while..but it is the only correct way that would be worth doing as it would really proove it and not just be ignorance...and hey I've had to write a lot so why shouldn't you!

I also wonder why it is everyones approach is to try work a way around the Trinity when looking at this issue rather than just looking at the scriptures and what they clearly say.

John 1 should clear it up...

this makes me happy! lmao..its so easy. Explain any other way apart from the Trinity how the word (Jesus) could be with God (2 people) and also is God (2 become 1 person)?!

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

Oh ya about that quote what is truth. I dunno that really started me thinkin that the trinity was right when I read that a while ago. But I did some research about the old old OLD school scriptures, straight up hebrews and greek stuff. And the word Theos was used differently in that line... Which kind of wasn't in favor of the trinity. I'd say read the translations word for word of the hebrew and greek scriptures. Almost all bibles were made after the thought of the trinity came to be and it started kind of favoring the trinity in the translations over the years. Come on imperfect men translated these things, stuff change over time. Good old Telephone Syndrome.

Language/Translation issues:

In New Testament Greek The Father (John 6:27), The Son (Hebrews 1:8), and The Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) are all designated with the Greek for GOD (Èåïò)

Deuteronomy 4:31 declares: For Jehovah your God (Elohim ? Plural) is a merciful God (El ? Singular). Other verses that refer to God in the plural are: Genesis 1:26, 3:22, 11:7.

Although there are those who would tell us that Deuteronomy 4:6 proves God is not a trinity (For our God is ONE Jehovah. . . ) yet the word for one (in Hebrew) is that same as that used in Genesis 2:24 about marriage (. . . and they become ONE flesh) which clearly relates to a ?one? made up of several parts.

This man got masters in this stuff..I trust him..sorry! lol Dont know bout that 1st verse in Genesis...but all this point to it being rit.

aw man i posted this and lost so much stuff! :( sux so bad

il come on and do tomo..sad :(

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

hey obvious secret! I think you should keep searching. The best thing to do is believe what the scriptures say.

John 1The Eternal Word

Testimony of John the Baptist
(1) 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend [1] it.

Here the Word is refering to Jesus. This again clearly shows he is also God. You should read my first post and you'll see alot of evidence of the Trinity.

I feel it is a most important topic as not believing in the Trinity would take away Jesus's ability to defeat sin and would make him also a liar and blasphemer for saying things like:

John 12: 44 Then Jesus cried out and said, "He who believes in Me, believes not in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45 And he who sees Me sees Him who sent Me.

Really think about this one dudes. Jesus is Lord (God is Lord!) and saviour (who else could defeat sin, the bible (in Romans) tells us that ?by grace you are saved through faith not by WORKS? You can?t earn you own way into God?s heaven. Not according to the Bible.) but God himself who alone is perfect..while we are all born in our sinful nature)

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

sorry if sick of hearing me.. I just don't want to appear rude or miss any opportunities!

This shows more than one person was involved from the beginning in the creation as God said ?us make?.
PRECISELY not three in one -ARIAN HERSEY ALL OVER AGAIN - HEAR O Israel the lord our God is not actually one God but Three in One

Did you not read the rest of the document/post you got that quote from!? I then showed how only possibility was for to be Holy Trinity as bible reveals was Gods' hands who made earth.

The child replied, "Thy work is stranger than mine, for thou art laboring to bring within the grasp of human intellect the conception of the trinity."

ok this is fun..actually amagine a childs voice speaking these words! lol

This fatherhood and sonship are allegorical and symbolical. The Messianic reality is like unto a mirror through which the sun of divinity has become resplendent. If this mirror expresses "The light is in me" - it is sincere in its claim; therefore Jesus was truthful when he said, "The Father is in me."

Why did you tell a story about how it isn't sensible to try grasp the wonders of God with our intellect, and then limit him with a view that clearly brings him down to working on our level within our boundaries limtis and understanding?

Or did you..sorry I'm really confused with your wording. I'm not great english student.

The mirror can not say I am the sun ...so they are differnt..like a photograph of me would clearly not be the same as another me running about the place. This is what the bible presents as a picture for the 3 members of the trinity. They are one. "The fullness of the godhead bodily" dwells in christ the scripture reveals. This is much mysterious/bigger than what you are explaining.

p.s. yes I am a evangelical...I prefer the title born again believer though. It is more detailed! thanx for the welcome! Keep searching!

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

hey guys..here is something a mate who bible studies with me gave me on this:

Thank you for taking time to reply to our post. Let me clear some things up. Let me assume for now that the Jews do indeed take God to be one entity (I?m trusting you on this one). I hate to come back to the old clichéd shamrock argument used by St. Patrick, but it makes the point well. Look at the leaf of a shamrock. It may be one leaf, but it has 3 separate parts that make up that one leaf. In the same way a tree has different branches, and yet still is one tree, God has 3 parts, yet he is still one God. This would at least partly answer you thoughts about the Jews believing in a "one being God". I do as well.

Secondly, you mentioned the face that Jesus was a practising Jew, and he knew the Jewish beliefs, so why did he not make clear to them that he was God.

John 10:38

But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father."

This story may help a bit:

A professor of theology once asked his students to get a sheet of paper and divide it into three columns. In the first column they were to write every passage where Christ is spoken of as God-Man; in the second column all the passages where Christ is spoken of as God alone; and in the third, all the passages where Christ is spoken of as man alone. The papers were badly balanced. The first and second columns filled right up, but as to the third column, no one found a passage speaking of Christ as man alone. There just is no such passage.

Mat 16:15-17

"What about you?" he asked them. "Who do you say I am?"

Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

"Good for you, Simon son of John!" answered Jesus. "For this truth did not come to you from any human being, but it was given to you directly by my Father in heaven.

Jesus confirms to Peter (and those disciples who were present) that he is correct in saying that he is the Son of God. Jesus also said (John 14:9) Jesus answered, "For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father(God). He is again making it clear that not only is he the son of the Father, but he IS the father embodied.

If Jesus IS the father then he has been "around" since before the creation (we know this because the Father has always existed. I do not believe that Jesus was created. I believe is has always "been" and always will be.

Finally this brings me to the second post, and hopefully to some issues surrounding the Trinity. We are dealing here with the very nature of God himself, something that I do not believe that we can ever comprehend totally outside of eternity.

It was mentioned that God could exist in any number of dimensions. I must confess I am not a quantum physicist so I cannot speak about the theory, only tell you what I believe and why. I think that God exists in no dimensions, in that he is beyond everything that "is". We are told that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. I don?t believe that he could have created it if he was in any way bound by its rules.

There is no doubt that we live in a wonderful and beautiful universe, and I believe that God is outside of it all. He created Time, Space, and Matter. We cannot comprehend anything without time, though if God created it, he must be outside of it. This leads naturally to the conclusion that we will never be able to comprehend God while we are limited by the constraints of time.

I hope this goes some of the way to explaining why you say "there is no basis for the trinity in the natural world." When I think about things like this I realize how awesome God really is, and it makes me realize just how awesome it is that he loves me and wants me to be with him.

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

About this God all powerful and all loving theory : I've done this in school. Most stupid thought process ever. You can't characterise God with 3 qualities (loving,powerful,knowing) and try work him out. He is so much bigger.

He is also Just..we can basically sum it up with this. He must punish sin.

Why did he just not make us. This would imediately take away the free will he choose to give us. He is just and won't break his own boundaries he sets.

We can not pass the blame...we all screw up..but he provides a solution of grace we dont deserve and we complain! Enjoy life and get right with God through Jesus's sacrafice for you and you will understand how wonderful his love and grace is now and one day in eternity u will fall at his feet in wonder.

We are the screw ups not God..stop passing the blame.

Btw...knowing something before it happens does not take away free will. Just means you can see persons choice

On another note. I read about that pagan origin of Trinity and because of location or knowledge or something (can't remember) the early christians would not have known about it according to some encyclopedia...just a thought.

29

BIBLICAL PROOF OF THE TRINITY?

by what_is_truth_7 in

biblical proof of the trinity

colossians 2:17

beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to christ.

what_is_truth_7

I know I will never fully understand or be able to explain God. However, I need to clarify this point specifically, because I need to know who to pray to. As it goes now, I only pray to God; approaching him in the name of his son. Anyway, here goes more:

Also if it is true only then could Jesus have the power to save us completely from our sins. And it puts him in a whole new position...God! whoosh!

Jesus was a fully practicing jew.

I'm sorry about my last reply. Frankly I looked at it wrong and didn't research or think enough. Yes he was a practicing Jew. And was a perfect one at that.

I can't give the scripture that Witnesses use to claim Jesus was the very first creation.... I've been out too long. Perhaps this is where someone else could step in and answer this one.

I'm going to ask a friend tonight!

Isaiah 48:13 Indeed My hand has laid the foundation of the earth,
And My ri ght hand has stretched out the heavens;
When I call to them,
They stand up together.
Again it is contraversal for Jesus to be part of creation if he is not God (as part of the Trinity) as scripture reveals, for example shown in Isaiah above, that Gods hand created.
Good question. This is something that was never satisfactorily answered to me by my study guides in the Witness faith. My only response to this is that I have only read this verse in english. I need to do further studying into hebrew and read the translation myself. There are many ways of understanding a word, and the ways it may be used in a sentence. I am not refuting this argument of yours, only stating my opinion. But this verse alone does not convince me that God=Jesus.

Yes that would help. Until we get further help we should maybe focus on other scriptures then. Theres plenty. Look at gold_mornings post. BTW thanks very much for this gold_morning

Please elaborate on the body, spirit, soul comment

Umm my understanding has been body-physical, soul-personnality, spirit-link with God

Hebrews 4:12 "For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword,piercing even to the division of soul and spirit.............

Speaks for itself. Can't find anymore at the minute

And are you using this to show trinity in humans?

I believe God evidences the trinity in alot of things. 3 dimensional world ? - family..mum, dad and children? And yes has been my way of looking at things that we consist of a trinity.

How is the spirit different from the soul? Aren't they the same thing?

I think to be without a relationship with God (not having Jesus as Saviour and Lord to fix relationship) means your spirit is dead (Ecclesiastes 12:6-7 shows Spirit returns to God). Thats what it means in scriptures when it takes about death..as well as physical it can be spiritual..and that is of which Jesus came to fix.

Where as the soul lives forever (irrelivant of where it may dwell!) and is your personality I guess. Matthew 10:28 -

im confused on this issue but and need to look into it more. Might be wrong. :S But I believe they are separte just not sure on the purpose.

I guess I was trying to point out that many themes throughout the bible repeat themselves. The trinity issue would be unique, as its theme is not repeated in the bible. Indeed, the question of the trinity isn't raised until the new testament.

Guess thats maybe because Jesus came as God only then and was reveal mostly then. I know wee clearly the Trinity theme in the bible irrespective of old beliefs and so I will base my believe on Gods complete revealation not man.

If God is three, why did he only become three later in the history of the world.

He didn't. He always was 3. God in Genesis 1:1 is a plural word. It has been since the beginning. It has always been. We all just bit thick! lol

The Jews would have worshipped a biune God if this were the case; God and the Holy Spirit.

Is it not possible they got it wrong..again..based on this new revealation!?..or maybe God was happy to be worshipped as God as he is that aswell as the trinity..Maybe it was not his time to reveal...more likely we messed up.

To understand this point better, it is important to understand shekinah, the word for holy spirit in. It is refered to in a feminine term, and understood by Jews to be God's active power. They never worshipped it, though. No more than a man's hand is given credit for what he creates.

My initial post covers how the Holy Spirit (he) is definetly a separate entity/person yet still in trinity. Cant refer to anything else as he correctly.

And if Jesus was God, coming to earth, what would that have proved? The question raised by Satan was God's headship, and his right to rule over his own creation. Why would he have come to earth to die for us? We already know his perfection. A perfect human dying in place of our sins is a true equivalent. Not God dying for puny humans. What would that spectacle have been about? He doesn't need to prove anything to us. Why did Jesus call out to his father and beg his father to relieve his suffering if possible? God would have been talking to himself.

I do not know what your understanding is here. But I believe Jesus came and was God and the reason being is he was the only one able to conquer death. He was what the sacrafices of lambs pointed to. He was the one who was going to do the real Jod. It pleased God to sacrafice Jesus bible says, yet it says he has no joy in the burnt offereings. They were pointers to Jesus. If you wish ask me for verse references. Jesus made solution to our problem of spiritual death and brocken relationships with God for good. We just have to accept it.

You may have noticed I place a lot of weight with the beliefs of the Jews. It is the one religion I believe God gave to humankind. Unfortunately they failed to recognize the messiah when he came. (As was foretold.) Therefore, what they believe about God and his word, is what I believe. Jesus was a Jew. However I believe Jesus was the savior promised to his people. This is why I am a christian, not a jew. I respect the first covenent for what is was, but I place my faith in the promise brought about by Jesus.

This is good. But base on Gods word. The bible shows how people have been failing him and messing up the whole way through. It is only thing we can trust.

Your turn

hard work ! hehe :p..fun! I really hope and pray you find the truth. Thanks for making me think its good for me

what_is_truth_7

Posts by what_is_truth_7