Posts by artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Joseph: I think the reason why as you say "so many people think that our Lord will come down to rule with non-human beings" is scriptures like the ones below which seem to suggest a change from a physical (natural) body to a spiritual one:

1Cor 15:
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[5] ; the last Adam, a lifegiving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

1 Pet 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit

Artful

23

The Watchtower says Jesus is a LIAR!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

here is big contradiction between the watchtower and the bible:.

the watchtower society says that jesus christ was resurrected as a "spirit creature" and that he no longer had his body because jehovah (the father) "zapped" his body out of existence.. what does the bible say?:.

john 2:18: the jews therefore answered him, "what sign do you show us, seeing that you do these things?".

artful

UD: Great post! Very interesting application of the WTS misunderstanding of Jesus' resurrection as it applies to Jesus prophecy - and I believe a correct use of the term "liars".
___________
Joseph: You have made some very good comments here, and I agree with your reasoning regarding Jesus resurrection in the flesh and spirit. A couple of questions/comments for you though:

What do you believe happened to Christ's body when he ascended to heaven? Did his ascension to heaven include both his material body and spirit (Logos)?

Also, a minor point regarding your antichrist teaching. I have read the scriptures where John writes of those who are considered "antichrist" and he seems to be addressing two issues):

1. Those who deny that Jesus was the Christ,
1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist; he denies the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

and
2. Those who acknowledge that Jesus was the Christ but deny that he came to the Earth in flesh.

2 John 1:7
Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

The first teaching is obviously "antichrist" but the second although more subtle is still considered antichrist. Some (like the Gnostics and Docetists) during John's time taught that the material world was all "corrupt" and therefore Christ did not come in the flesh but only "appeared" to be human, like a phantom. It appears that John was referring to these ones in his "antichrist" statements in 1st and 2nd John, not to the teaching that Christ had not "risen in the flesh".

I realize that this is a minor discrepancy, because of course if the Gnostics did not believe that Christ came in the flesh, then they would also not believe that he had risen in the flesh. However, since the WTS does teach that Christ came in the flesh, by "strict definition" (as written by John) could they really be scripturally labeled "antichrist" for not believing that Christ was "risen in the flesh"?

Artful

38

Were you born into the jw faith?

by nakedmvistar in

jw
friends

how many of you on this forum were born into the jw faith?

do you think this put you at a disadvantage when leaving the org.

do you think that someone who becomes a witness later in life would have an easier time adjusting back to a "normal" life?

artful

Thanks for your reply nakedmvistar: In fact my "integration into normal society" (holidays, celebrations,etc.) is something that I have been slowly immersing my immediate family in during the past two years. Although, this is something that has presented some obstacles - due to lack of experience with the protocols in these areas - I have been thoroughly enjoying this experience!!

In fact this year was the first time that myself and my daughter celebrated Halloween and Christmas together. I was reassured of my decision to do this by the words of my daughter - who was so happy to be doing what all of the other kids were doing - when as we walked together hand in hand at Halloween she hugged me and said:
"Daddy, this is the best day of my life"!!

Cheers
Artful

38

Were you born into the jw faith?

by nakedmvistar in

jw
friends

how many of you on this forum were born into the jw faith?

do you think this put you at a disadvantage when leaving the org.

do you think that someone who becomes a witness later in life would have an easier time adjusting back to a "normal" life?

artful

I was "born" into it, and I think that it does pose a number of difficulties for someone who has not cut themselves off from the JWs. Firstly, because I am not separated from the JWs currently (DFd or DAd) the ramifications of this action makes it a very difficult thing to bring myself to do. I realize that my family, with whom I have a great relationship, would be put in a very difficult position with regards to association with me.
Secondly, my daughter who is very young, could potentially be raised by my wife in an environment which teaches that Daddy is essentially bad! Since these are not very attractive outcomes, it leaves me feeling trapped into maintaining a kind of "inaction" with respect to my disassociation.

Artful

60

Favorite Movie Quotes

by meadow77 in

jw
friends

i have tons of them, favorite movie quotes that is.

a misspent youth i guess, but i love movies.

i was watching one of my favorites the other day,seven.

artful

"We are the middle children of society. We have no great war. No great depression. Our great war is spiritual, and our great depression is our lives."
Tyler Durden - Fight Club

6

Why There Are So Many Dumb Snakes in India

by onacruse in

from the first book of adam and eve (also known as the conflict of adam and eve with satan) (chapter 18): .

when the accursed serpent saw adam and eve, it swelled its head, stood on its tail, and with eyes blood-red, did as if it would kill them.

it made straight for eve, and ran after her; while adam standing by, wept because he had no stick in his hand wherewith to smite the serpent, and knew not how to put it to death.

artful

Craig: OK, I'll offer you some support!
I guess this provides us with an explanation of why snakes can't talk! Is that why it was preserved for us?!!

Cheers
Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Joseph: I agree that the discussion is about where this paradise will be "at the time of its reality", but rather than repeat our discussion about what Paul and John said here, I would suggest that we continue this at the other post that I referenced:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Thanks
Artful

9

Are you looking for beliefs or truth?

by Pleasuredome in

here's an interesting quote i found on the net about why we need truth rather than beliefs.

belief has nothing to do with truth.

there is danger in belief: it makes you feel that you know the truth.

artful

Pleasuredome: great thread!

peacefulpete: VERY insightful comments about the psychology behind this tendency...particularly - "What is needed then is to convince people that the lion is not at the door so they can calmly apply more critical thinking skills."

This is of course exactly the opposite of the kind of environment that the WT promotes - rather, they issue urgent reminders that we are in the "dangerous world of Satan", where we must "be alert" and stay part of "the herd". Very interesting that when raised in this "dangerous" environment the natural outcome is that time is not allowed to "apply more critical thinking skills", but rather it fosters the quick development of "life-saving beliefs" which can of course blind us from the truth. This thinking also promotes reliance on the "herd".

Since many of us have come out of that environment, I think that we may be prone to slip back in to the same mentality as we develop new ideas. Personally, this something that I really try to be aware of. I find that in a search for "truth" in the scriptures, there are many different viewpoints and interpretations to consider. Due to the ambiguity of scriptures in many areas, I am learning that it is not always possible to clearly define a true "belief" system for each specific topic. Having grown up in an environment where you are "in the Truth" and have every topic of scripture explained (with insistence on its correctness) it can be difficult to resign oneself to not having an explanation for everything. However, I think that taking the time to be "search" mode is much more satisfying than being frightened into "belief" mode.

Artful

35

Paradise: in Heaven or on Earth?

by artful in

the term "paradise earth" is one frequently used by the wts.

while researching the scriptural references to "paradise" (and the official wts explanation for each), i was surprised with what i found regarding the location of paradise.

these are the only three places that the word "paradise" can be found in the bible.. .

artful

Joseph wrote:
"we cannot and should not accuse anyone of being dogmatic. We should reveal such biased thinking by the proofs offered or even by those not supplied and not by accusations such as this."
Please accept my apology. I assure you that it was not my intention to insult your reasoning by using the word dogmatic (by which I merely suggest that you were asserting your beliefs in such a manner as to "state them as an established tenet" - I did not mean to imply that your reasoning has no adequate grounds). However, considering the scriptural ambiguity on whether "paradise" would be located in heaven or earth, to accuse others of supporting "antichrist" doctrine based on your scriptural interpretation (that paradise will be on earth and that Jesus would return in flesh) seemed to me to be dogmatic.

Joseph wrote:
"The paradise issue is a doctrine of Christ. It was uttered as truth, a fact from which the thief could take comfort. It should be more than considered. It should be understood by all claiming to be disciples of the one that taught this truth in the first place."
I don't dispute that "paradise" is a doctrine of Christ, and I would most assuredly like to share your certainty of belief as to its location. However, based on the scriptural evidence I have considered so far, there seems to be no "undeniable" proof of where it will be. I would suggest that initially the Jews and disciples of Christ were looking for a restoration of paradise to the earth, and as time went on Paul and John (among others) seemed to point to a heavenly citizenship, and therfore my leanings are toward the heavenly (as we are discussing in another thread) -
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=42689&site=3

Artful

7

Waht is a Jehovah-Witness

by No_one_shall_know_my_name in

i haven't really got into the research but what really is a jehovah-witness?could anyone answer that for me.well someone has to know.

artful

Well summed up whyhideit! What dictionary did that come from...LOL!!
Here's what mine says:

Jehovah's Witness: a member of a group that witness by distributing literature and by personal evangelism to beliefs in the theocratic rule of God, the sinfulness of organized religions and government, and an imminent millennium.

Cheers
Artful