Amazing

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Posts by Amazing

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  5

  What's wrong with sympathy??

  by JW72 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i just wanna repeat what i said before about the fact that i feel sorry for women putting up with what they go through.. i know from my girlfriend that the period means 3 even 4 days of not feeling good, sometimes really painful.. i think it's fine for me to feel bad about that.. i don't feel sorry for women on a whole or think that they can't cope, i just think that what they go through is unfair, especially if it was god's intention!!.

  sorry if anyone was offended (tina included).. i'm glad i'm a guy coz i don't think i'd be so happy to put up with it.. i love women,.

  chris

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  Amazing

  I agree that sympathy for what women face is good. And we men have our hormonal ups and downs too ... and we have our bad days and good days. It all seems a little unfair. But, I guess that is what God wanted for us. - Amazing
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  43

  New Congregation

  by Deacon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok. we ran a thread recently about starting a new religion.. how about we start an international congregation here on the board.. we need 7 elders.

  7 being a sign of perfection..er....yeah.. we need ministerial servants.. appointments will be general concensus..er holy spirit i mean.. p.o.

  lets start with him.

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  Amazing

  You also need a villian. So, I volunteer to be your first Apostate!

  Amazing
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  3

  JUSTICE #4c - Good Old Boys

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  later it was announced at the kingdom hall that she was disfellowshipped.

  y's wife was disfellowshipped.

  y. i later learned that the congregation file and this issue with bro.

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  Amazing

  Hi LMR: Yes, it is an eye-opener whether still a JW or never in the organization. It all was an eye-opener to me while I was an Elder and afterwards. So far, I have posted up to Justice #4c. Here is the full list of Justice Series:

  Posted So Far
  Justice #1 - Loving Marriage Counselors
  Justice #2 - Making Mole Hills into Mountains
  Justice #3 - Sin Worse than Apostasy
  Justice #4a - Blind Guides & Molesters
  Justice #4b - See No Evil, Hear No Evil ...
  Justice #4c - Good Old Boys
  Justice #4d - JWs are NOT ALONE
  To be Posted
  Justice #5 - Comfort the Depressed - NOT
  Justice #6 - Stumble the Least of These
  Justice #7 - JW Elders = Nazis?
  Justice #8 - No Law? - Invent One
  Justice #9 - We're Gonna Get You!
  Justice #10 - What You Say will be Twisted
  Justice #11 - Control them with FEAR
  Justice #12 - Little Bits of Evidence
  NEW
  Justice #13 - Praying to the Devil

  I hope that all of these will bring in enough light on how the JW justice system truly exposes the Watch Tower religion as a fruad.

  Amazing
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  3

  JUSTICE #4c - Good Old Boys

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  later it was announced at the kingdom hall that she was disfellowshipped.

  y's wife was disfellowshipped.

  y. i later learned that the congregation file and this issue with bro.

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  Amazing

  GOOD OLD BOYS LOOK OUT FOR ONE ANOTHER

  While at a new Kingdom Hall we were starting to get to know various new people, we noticed Bro. Y, whom we had met earlier. He was holding his little daughter and came up to us and talked. As we conversed the subject somehow migrated into the topic of child molestation. I made some rather strong comments about child molesters and my disgust at how they seem to get by with their crimes. Bro. Y's eyes filled with tears and he just stood silent as I talked. I knew then that this topic bothered him, and assumed that maybe in some way a molester harmed him or his children. I changed the topic to avoid further hurt for him.

  A year or so later, Bro. Y's oldest daughter left home and moved in with a 'worldly' family. We learned that she had some emotional problems and the high school counselors brought in some expert to help her out. She was advised to leave home. Later it was announced at the Kingdom Hall that she was disfellowshipped. I believe that she was about 16 or 17. Shortly after that a special Service Meeting talk dealt with apostasy. We learned that she was attending a local “church” with the family she lived with. I thought it odd that such a young lady would be a charged with apostasy.

  A few months later Bro. Y's wife was disfellowshipped. She had not attended meetings for years. I do not recall the special talk that would have been associated with Sis. Y's disfellowshipping, but word got out that she was divorcing her husband, Bro. Y.

  Many more months passed, and I learned that Bro. Y was privately reproved. A special Service Meeting talk was given on molestation. The general congregation was not told who the molester was. And no one seem to have a clue as to who it could be. Worse yet no one felt obligated to know who it is.

  Not long after this I learned that the Elders had informed their own children to stay away from Bro. Y because of the potential of molestation. I immediately called one of the Elders, and he confirmed that Bro. Y received congregational discipline, but he hedged at to the nature of the offense. I related how I learned that the Elders informed their children. He finally confided to me that Bro. Y has some problems with this issue, but did not say to what extent. [This subject also came up during a ‘Shepherding call on me, and the Elders confirmed who the molester was, and begged me not to go to the authorities.]

  I asked if he or one of the Elders was planning to go to the authorities. I would have, but by this time I had resigned my position, and felt that the Elders should report the matter. The Elder begged me to mind my own business, and said that talking to the authorities would only make a difficult situation worse. He said that my reporting this crime would cause serious harm to Bro. Y. I complied temporarily.

  Sometime later I learned of a young family that was moving. The reason given was that one of their children was molested by Bro. Y, and they decided it best to move and not talk about it. I also learned the name of another young JW girl who was most knowledgeable about this and also a victim of Bro. Y.

  So, I contacted the authorities. I was referred to a detective in the county Sheriff's office. He took notes and names of potential witnesses and victims. He advised me that I would not be called as a witness because I was not a witness to the crime or a victim.

  The only related event I had actually directly witnessed was Bro. Y out in the parking lot walking his younger daughter during the meeting. He had her on his lap and his hand up her dress. The detective said that was not good enough because I could not see what his hand was doing up her dress.

  The detective tried talking with the victims and families and other witnesses. Nothing came of it because the JWs would not talk. He told me he was very frustrated with the JWs because they are the worst group for getting information from when it comes to telling on one of their own. Indeed, the Good Old Boys were looking out for their own. [I also suspect, and the detective agreed, that the victims and their families were coached by the Elders into not talking, hedging, and possibly lying.]

  I told him of the Elder's admission that Bro. Y was disciplined by the JW congregation for molestation. He said that was nice, but still could not be used in court because it is hearsay. He said that if they can get an Elder to come forth, or obtain solid evidence that they could make a charge with, then he can use what I told him to help identify the Elders involved in the discipline and where they can get the congregation Judicial file. He did say that in our state, clergy, doctors, lawyers, and counselors can be jailed on a misdemeanor charge for failure to report a molester. [This happened in early 1990s, but the state modified their criminal procedures in 1999 and restored Clergy-Penitent privilege.]

  I also learned from the detective that child services in our state had a file on Bro. Y, but it was inaccessible to police because of a plea bargain arrangement with Bro. Y. I later learned that the congregation file and this issue with Bro. Y went back many years. Bro. Y always received some “mild” discipline that allowed him to stay in the congregation. The Elders liked him and were trying to “help him” with this sin. He was seen as a most helpful brother and performed a lot of favors for various JWs, including the Elders.

  The last I learned is that he lives with his youngest daughter and some other family member. I tried calling Bro. Y to talk with him directly, but he would not receive my calls even though he was home. His wife divorced him because of the molestation issue and his oldest daughter moved out because of it. As mentioned above, his oldest daughter was disfellowshipped for apostasy. His wife was disfellowshipped as well. [But I was never sure of the exact charge.]

  I told the Elders that as long as Bro. Y continues to have access at the Kingdom Hall as a member of the congregation, then my family nor I can attend there. They also know that I went to the authorities, and this was about the beginning of the end for me. Shortly after I made my threat to talk with the police, the wheels of judicial action started to turn against me.

  To conclude, I stated on H20 as a note to Judicial #4 (b) that I would try to get the name of the molester who was convicted. I checked with his state. They will not release the information unless I appear in person in the jurisdiction where he lives and present why my family or I feels threatened by him. Since I no longer live in that state, I cannot get the information.

  There is a Web Site that has information on molesters. It stated that the average child molester sexually molests an average of 117 children in their sexual careers. [Since that time, I have talked with an attorney on matters pertaining to molestation among JWs. He noted that the figures are actually much higher, and said that molesters will victimize about 300+ children in their careers.] Think about that every time a molester does not get reported ... think about how many children each molester will affect. Look at your congregations and ask yourself, how many children are there?

  [There are about 6,000 JW congregations in the USA. IN my years as a JW, I have personally known five (5) JW molesters from nine (9) congregations I was associated with. If my experience is any kind of sample representation, then out of 6,000 JW congregations, there may be as many as 3,000 molesters. Cut that number in half to be conservative, or to 1,500 JW molesters. Assume that they only victimize 20 children, instead of the 177 the web showed, or the 300+ the attorney talked about, and you still have a potential 30,000 victims. That is the size of a small city, and in JUST the USA alone. Think about it!] – Amazing
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  8

  To: Uncle Onion & Ros

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  hi uncle & ros: buried deep down in tina's post uncle asked whether i was an atheist and ros noted that she thought i was a liberal christian.

  i have been going through an evolution in my life, but i will try to give a good snapshot of where i am at now.

  i may yet change one way or another:.

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  Amazing

  Hi Uncle & Ros: Buried deep down in Tina's post Uncle asked whether I was an Atheist and Ros noted that she thought I was a Liberal Christian. I have been going through an evolution in my life, but I will try to give a good snapshot of where I am at now. I may yet change one way or another:

  1. I still believe in God. Even though science demonstrates that a number of common beliefs from the Bible, held mostly by Christians, to be in error, I find it difficult to believe that our entire existence is pure chance development. It is too complex and interconnected to be a sole product of evolution. BUT ... I could be wrong.

  2. I believe that the Bible is seriously flawed in anything that may be considered 'sceintific' and that much of it is allergorical type of myth. I believe that the Bible has historical errors as well. But, it contains some good and some wisdom. I agree with the position that the Bible 'may' contain inspiration from God, but that the Bible itself is not inspired.

  3. Jesus Christ is the strong suit for me. He was a visionary for his time, and would be today as well. It is not so much that I have faith in Jesus Christ (although I do) but it is Jesus Christ who gives me faith and hope. I believe that today, Jesus Christ would be on the Internet nailing many religions, not the least of which would be the Jehovah's Witnesses, as being hypocritical frauds.

  4. I am not sure I can be called a 'Liberal' Christian, because I am not sure what that is. I have no membership in any organized religion, and believe that anything Christian is a matter of what each individual is. I do not judge those who are members of churches. But, I believe that Christianity is something more than a church. And, I cannot submit, ever again, to any organized system. BRCI is about as far as I can go.

  5. If I change my position about God or Christ, it would be toward 'Agnosticism'. I find that a less arrogant position to take, because there is so much we all don't know, that to assume there is no God, is as arrogant as saying that Earth is the only planet in the universe with life.

  6. Given all the above, I do seriously question God, his wisdom, his love, his justice, his power, his motives, his plans, his purpose, and his very person. I find that putting the human race through over 6,000 years (if you accept Biblical timelines) or many hundreds of thousands of years of HELL for a piece of damn fruit eaten by two ignorant idiots in the Garden of Eden is stretching things just a bit. There is, therefore, something very wrong with the whole picture.

  7. Atheist? No. Agnostic? Not yet. Believer, to some degree on my own terms. Hope? Absolutely, but not hoping to get a reward, as that seem rather self-serving. Rather, I hope for some answers, and thus give God the benefit of the doubt, and hope that the Devil does not exist.

  Question: Do any of you think it is possible that it was the Devil that set-up Adam & Eve with the Tree rule, and it was GOD who was trying to get Adam & Eve to think for themselves and not just obey out of blind acceptance, but make a choice? And that it was really Satan that labeled God as a snake because he did not want humans to become independant? Think about it?

  No, I am not going crazy, just wondering if maybe the whole Garden incident is political "spin" by the Devil, including the invention of religions. And that aside from creating life, God has taken a back seat and really inspired nothing ... and merely tried to get humans to think for themselves. - Amazing
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  7

  JUSTICE #4b - See No Evil, Hear No Evil, ...

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil .

  some see this expression as a positive exhortation to not look at bad things, don't listen to evil, and don't gossip.

  other's see it more like three foolish monkeys who would not look, listen, or speak out against injustice.

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  Amazing

  HI Tina: I used the term "love" as a descriptor rather than using their real last names. In case you actually know who I am really speaking of, then maybe you could email me at [email protected].

  Iin none of my series do I reveal the actual names and places to avoid causing any embarassment or upset to any who have been victims. But, because you stated the correct State which this event took place, I would enjoy an email to see if you know the same family I speak of. Thanks for your comments. - Amazing
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  7

  JUSTICE #4b - See No Evil, Hear No Evil, ...

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil .

  some see this expression as a positive exhortation to not look at bad things, don't listen to evil, and don't gossip.

  other's see it more like three foolish monkeys who would not look, listen, or speak out against injustice.

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  Amazing

  SEE NO EVIL, HEAR NO EVIL, SPEAK NO EVIL

  Some see this expression as a positive exhortation to not look at bad things, don't listen to evil, and don't gossip. Other's see it more like three foolish monkeys who would not look, listen, or speak out against injustice.

  I knew a wonderful brother (Love) and his family. He is still a friend though he continues with the JW organization. We have a lot in common, including our last names, and we look alike. He and his wife are among the most kind and hospitable and loving people I have ever known. They are always generous, share all they have, and trust people, and see good in people.

  Bro. Love for some reason never served beyond a MS. He was raised in the organization as was his wife. In addition to life's normal burdens, their children were shall we say, very innocent for their age group [Somewhat mentally challenged].

  Bro. Love always spoke well of people and took joy in their successes in life. He spoke highly of a Bro. (Z) whom he knew for many years. Brother Love invited Bro. Z and his family to spend the weekend with them [this was not uncommon for them to do].

  During that weekend, we got a call to have our children stay the night as well. They had a large home, and Bro. Love wanted all the kids to have lots of fun. His kids were not always accepted among other JWs, so he especially liked my family because my children befriended his children.

  We had been out late and missed the call, but late that night Bro. Love invited us over for dinner for the next night to meet the Z family. We agreed and went. Bro. Z and his family seemed real nice and I could see why Bro. Love liked him, but for me it was mostly a good time because Bro. Love was my friend.

  Confidential talk:A week or two later, I got a call from Bro. Love. He said that he needed to speak in confidence. So we arranged a visit. He would not let on what the problem was, and required the utmost confidence.

  When we met, he told me that he was concerned for my children. I of course asked why. He said that one of his kids was molested and wanted to know if I could see if any of my four children were in anyway knowledgeable or even affected by a molester. I agreed, but got him to agree to tell me who he thought the perpetrator was.

  I talked with my children in-depth and determined that they had not seen anything nor had they any negative experiences, nor were molested. I encouraged them to tell only me or their mother anything that they learn because I needed to act with caution.

  I learned that Bro. Z was arrested for child molestation. The weekend they visited he molested one of Bro. Loves four children, and [possibly] one other of his kids, but it was not determined absolutely for sure if the second child was molested. The second child was too young to be able to say what happened.

  How did Bro.Z get caught? He had been an MS himself on and off, and for some reason once in a while he would get removed as an MS. After some period of time he would get appointed again. At first, I did not know what he was removed for, but I later learned it was for sexual offenses.

  Anyway, Bro. Z's two daughters were having trouble in school. Their grades dropped and they were withdrawn. For some reason Sister Z, after some time, broke from congregation counsel not to trust "worldly" advice and counselors. She decided to take her children to counseling. She feared for her daughters, now in their mid-teens, may have a drinking or drug problem, though she had no evidence.

  Sometime into their counseling sessions, one of the daughters said she had a question. She said that she needed to talk because this 'other' issue, which had nothing to do with drinking, was bothering her. Her sister tried to get her to let it go, but she just needed to ask.

  As she started to talk about her dad, Bro. Z, she started crying and broke down and said that he was having sex with her. Her sister started crying and broke out in tears and said that she too was being molested by her dad, and this had been going on for years.

  Needless to say, child services were contacted, and Bro. Z was now arrested. During the investigation process it was learned that this had been going on for years and years. The 'official' charges included 15 children, but it was believe by the authorities that closer to 50 children had been molested. Why such a difference in total numbers?

  The authorities stated that JWs are among the worst group to talk about these issues especially where one of their own could get convicted. They said that few other groups were as bad, but JWs were among the worst.

  I encouraged Bro. Love to cooperate with the authorities. He agreed, but said he was so disappointed that this man, Bro. Z, would take advantage of his son. He wondered why the Elders in seven or more different congregations did not report this to the authorities. He wondered why they did not clean this out before so many kids were affected.

  But more than all else, Bro. Love felt especially harmed and hurt, not just because a friend (Bro. Z) took advantage of him and his son, because, you see, his son is mildly retarded. His son did not know what to do or how to deal with it.

  The JW gossip concerned itself far more with claims that Bro. Z was a member of the Church of Satan or a member of a secret cult group of sex offenders. But the real issue that is established in the criminal judicial system, in the courts, is that Bro. Z was a long time sex offender who had molested many children, and even his own two daughters.

  Why the connection to the expression to “See No Evil, Hear No Evil and Speak No Evil? It seems that for many years, according to Bro. Love, many knew of Bro. Z, but felt that it was not appropriate to say anything against a brother. Many Elders knew, but felt that each time the matter was properly handled under Jehovah's arrangements according to the Society's procedures.

  It took a 'worldly' counselor to bring the issue to the authorities ... a counselor who was willing to Hear the Evil, See the Evil, and Speak about the Evil.

  Tomorrow or Saturday, I will post Justice #4c. It will show what happened when I went to the civil authorities and the present state of a situation. – Amazing
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  JUSTICE #4a - Blind Guides & Molesters

  by Amazing in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

  matt 23:24 (kjv) .

  jesus' style of illustrations often employed the use of extremes.

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  Amazing

  PS: This former Elder, by the way, is one of the individuals I am turning over to the Attorney general of the State of California. Not long ago, that state abolished the statute of limitations for civil and criminal sanctions in cases of child molesters. So, someone who was molested 15, 20, 30 or more years ago can seek relief in the courts. Btw: The State of California has also required reporting sex offenders to the authorities and public noticfication for over 50 YEARS!. - Amazing
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  JUSTICE #3 - Sin worse than Apostasy!

  by Amazing in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  a sin worse than apostasy .

  there was a very nice young couple in our congregation with one child.

  no one could see why she should not be reinstated.

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  Amazing

  Hi Esther: Thanks for your comments. Sadly, the injustice, as you will note in Justice #4a and $4b that are also posted gets ever worse. And, in Justice #4c and #4d is gets even more worse. I have 13 Justice posts in all. And I may yet write #14+. Interestingly, I am just one person who served as an Elder. Can you imagine over 6,000 congregations in the USA with about 30,000 Elders in all. The numbers can be mind boggling as to the abuses. Then imagine almost 80,000 congregations worldwide with maybe 300,000 to 400,000 ELders involved in all kinds of actions. Simply staggering. - Amazing
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  41

  Elders appointed by Holy Spirit?

  by LadyBug in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  amazings justice points brings me to this point.

  elders truly believe that they are appointed by gods spirit.

  so when they appoint someone who is:.

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  Amazing

  What the Holy Spirit does and what organized religions do are often two different things.

  THEN: Yes, as a JW, I accepted the concept that by living as a mature Christian, meeting the standards set out in Timothy and Titus, I was functioning according to the operation of Holy Spirit. The organizatonal official recognition of that by appointment was a mere confirmation of what had already taken place. The WTS Organized book pretty much lays it out that way.

  NOW: I have totally removed from my beliefs the concept of any official church government appointments as correlating to the operation of Holy Spirit. I now believe that when either male or female Christians attain maturity and live by the standards set out in the Bible, that God, via Holy Spirit will cause other Christians in need, whether new Christians, sick Christians, or others in need, to look to those who are elder or mature in thier behavior and spirit.

  Absolutely NO organizational or church government recognition is needed, wanted, or desirable. All we need in the Christian faith are those who have faith and do their best. God takes care of the rest. There is NO Biblical basis for any form of Church government and institutionalization of Elders, or others. That is one of the serious myths pushed off on many people today, whether they are Jehovah's Witnesses or not.

  In spite of this disconnect between church government and the Holy Spirit, most Christian denominations do quite well in keeping abuse in check. The Jehovah's Witness religion is guilty of waste, fraud, and abuse of this basic Christian function, and they have no business being in the business of having a Church government. - Amazing