OrphanCrow

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Posts by OrphanCrow

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  49

  Justice McClellan was annoyed by not being made aware of the authority of Jackson as a GB top dog. Material needed if any one here could ..

  by umbertoecho in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  hello again.. splash had a pile of scriptural evidence which he uploaded and it was good material.

  it established the gb as the fds and used watchtower study articles.........i don't know if he was the only one but the material flew in the face of what those men have been saying.

  it proves, using their own material how they indeed think they are the ones with the direct control over millions of lives, because as you know.........they are the direct hot line to god.

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  OrphanCrow

  Contrary to Applewhite's testimony that there isn't any empirical evidence that has been done in her "expert" area, there has been expert investigations and reports done into both the organizational structure and the literature of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

  In 2000, these experts submitted their reports to the Supreme Court in Russia:

  [V].[P].[Belyanin], the doctor of philological sciences, the professor of the department of psycholinguistics HAZE, the professor of the center of international formation MGU [im]. [M].[V].[Lomonosova], the corresponding member of the academy of humanitarian studies, the academician of Moscow psychotherapeutic academy, the member of the international association of applied psycholinguistics, the member of the board of juridical psychologists;
  [M].[M].[Gromyko], the doctor of historical sciences, professor, the main scientific worker of the institute of ethnology and anthropology RAN [Russian Academy of Science]
  [D].[A].[Leontev], the doctor of psychological sciences, the docent of the department of psychology of MGU [im]. [M].[V].[Lomonosova], the substitute the chairman of the council of the Moscow department of Russian psychological society;
  [S].[A].[Nebolsin], the candidate of philological sciences, that manages by the sector of artistic interactions of the division of theory and methodology of history of literature and [iskusstvoznaniya], the chairman of scientific council for complex problem “Russia, the West and the east” of the institute of world literature RAN [Russian Academy of Science], the member of the administration of the union of the writers of Russia.

  The conclusions of the Russian expert reports can be found at this link here:

  Russian court expert testimony

  a snippet... [iegovy] or [iegove] refers to Jehovah - a Russian translation problem:

  As it is indicated in the division of the I, with the expert inspection of the texts of the witnesses Of [iegovy] it is established that they bear negative relation to the peace, they attempt to fence off man from the peace and to intimidate him. By an only way out situation is proposed the service To [iegove], at basis of which lies the subordination of the will of man to the will of this organization.
  In contrast to the traditional religions, in the literature and the documents of the witnesses Of [iegovy] the greatest attention is paid to the tactics of behavior with the sermon, to the methods of attraction in the organization, the discussion deals constantly with “the service”.
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  17

  Dude, JW's are getting crushed by the committie!

  by thedepressedsoul in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i've been catching up on the videos and news articles.

  the elders, lawyers, branch members, hired reports are all getting slammed!

  that dude has a response and point to bring up on everything!

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  OrphanCrow

  Greatteacher: Really crazy that none of them seemed to have read the witness statements.

  That may have been from their desire to show their adherence to Bible principles. After all, those witness statements would have been viewed as "dragging Jehovah's name through the mud" and therefore, apostate material. Like good little JWs that they must appear, they dutifully did not even read the words of that evil slave class. Those statements would have "demon smell" on them.

  Monty Baker's lawyer brought this issue up at one point in the questioning. Of course, it was denied.

  There was a well publicized murder trial years back, locally, that involved a prominent politican who had his ex-wife murdered. His testimony on the stand was solid: "Deny, deny, deny." I think that was used as the title of one of the books that was written about the case. I always think of Colin Thatcher when these JWs idiots are on the stand. "Deny, deny, deny."

  It didn't do Thatcher any good and I don't think the JWs' tactics are going to help them either. Ignorance is not a defence for innocence. "I don't recall" means "I can't tell."
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  49

  Justice McClellan was annoyed by not being made aware of the authority of Jackson as a GB top dog. Material needed if any one here could ..

  by umbertoecho in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  hello again.. splash had a pile of scriptural evidence which he uploaded and it was good material.

  it established the gb as the fds and used watchtower study articles.........i don't know if he was the only one but the material flew in the face of what those men have been saying.

  it proves, using their own material how they indeed think they are the ones with the direct control over millions of lives, because as you know.........they are the direct hot line to god.

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  OrphanCrow

  3rdgen:
  Wasn't there a fairly recent Watchtower with an illustration of the world (globe).

  This one? April 2013 WT., I think..

  
  

  
  

  A good article too at jwsurvey with WT quotes defining the authority of the Governing Body:

  http://jwsurvey.org/cedars-blog/are-jehovahs-witnesses-a-hierarchical-religion-and-does-it-matter
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  23

  Rodney Spinks Lies...

  by iwasblind in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  hi guys.

  i actually have had dealings with rod and found him to be a very reasonable and "non-robotic" man in the past.. i know it should not surprise me, but i was disappointed to hear his lies and half-truths.. they know their stuff and are not easily led, but he tried to lead the royal commission to believe that 2 people could be involved in investigating a claim - which is wrong.. his lack of memory on what parts of the judicial process are biblical - hello - none are.

  there are no scriptures that backup the use of 3 men, a body of elders, cutting people off from family and friends, restrictions, etc.. he also lied about the gb being involved in policy creation and changes.. his statement that in all cases, elders are told to inform parents that they can go to the authorities and get the full support of the congregation is not verifiable.

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  OrphanCrow

  Iwasblind: Hi Cappy
  Thank you, I understand my wording above was confusing. The commission was asking about 2 people as an investigative committee, but the brothers were saying 2 people (even women - "heaven forbid!") could investigate - however that brothers were talking about 2 people being witnesses - they did not clarify it a matter needs 2 elders to investigate.

  Is there not an element of the two witness rule in the way that judicial investigations involve, whenever possible, at least two elders? Are not the two elders viewed as filling the two witness rule for the branch? Is that not why they have a provision for an "observer" elder to watch the collection of evidence when the child accuser is compelled to give them their story? To provide that "second witness" to the testimony itself?

  I have understood, correct me if I am wrong, that testimony has to be given to at least two elders because the branch requires that for the report to have standing with them. A single elder's report/witness to the testimony itself is not considered valid.

  The micromanagement of this organization is making my head spin!
• 
  49

  Justice McClellan was annoyed by not being made aware of the authority of Jackson as a GB top dog. Material needed if any one here could ..

  by umbertoecho in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  hello again.. splash had a pile of scriptural evidence which he uploaded and it was good material.

  it established the gb as the fds and used watchtower study articles.........i don't know if he was the only one but the material flew in the face of what those men have been saying.

  it proves, using their own material how they indeed think they are the ones with the direct control over millions of lives, because as you know.........they are the direct hot line to god.

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  OrphanCrow

  Would it be helpful for the Royal Commission to be given copies of the "teaching material" that this representative of the Almighty has released on how to parent and how to identify abusers? After all, the "expert" gave testimony on how "the messages" given to JW children and parents exceeded other churches standards for education.

  I am thinking of the Sparlock video, that uses "parent-child role reversal strategies", by instilling a responsibility on the child for "Jehovah's feelings".

  http://1080plus.com/FuMSqz2L90A.video

  Geez,,,this JW father's voice sounds like Arnie:

  http://1080plus.com/7uFsk04imLI.video

  Jackson has a hand in the teaching material that is produced for the WTS. I hope all those horrible Caleb and Sophie cartoons get looked at and exposed for the terrible indoctrination that they are.

  The ice cream video, and the "monster" video - they must have been approved by the teaching department.

  Once Jackson's authority is established, he has to account for what his authority produces and the impact those educational materials have, especially material aimed at children and the family structure.
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  25

  How big a deal is the royal commission..? It seems to be not much...

  by _Morpheus in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  my understanding (very limited and maybe flawed) is that this commission has no teeth.

  if thats true why would the org care?

  send a few lawyers, go through the motions but in the end.... its a dog parking on a porch.

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  OrphanCrow

  neverendingjourney: I don't see anyone ending up in jail over this.

  I do.

  Canada's inquiries, similar in scope to the ARC, into Residential School abuses, resulted in many criminal actions against priests and people connected to institutions being investigated. Some of those abusers are sitting in jail right now.

  The "Truth and Reconciliation Report" that was recently released in Canada, was years in the making. But it didn't stop the redress payments being started long before the commission was finished with its fact finding.

  Whatever things are revealed that are criminal in nature will be dealt with by the agencies who have to become involved. The 1006 cases that have been secret up to now will already be in the hands of the police. We know that the Royal Commission has respect for the law and will have reported suspected crime to those who are in law enforcement.

  The Royal Commission's job is exposure - finding the truth. Lots of outside agencies' mission is "truth finding" as well. And those agencies have teeth that they can act with.

  I can't wait until the WTS' financial dealings get a fine tooth comb going over them. Tax agencies, for one, have big clout. Their books will get looked at - the Commission does deal with redress.
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  5

  The WTBTS has had insurance that possibly includes cover for Child Abuse since 1984

  by Listener in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  this is in a statement made by the australian branch committee member o'brien, the insurance is held by the wtbts pennsylvania.

  no doubt the cost of that insurance would be astronomical the more claims they are making against it but it would greatly influence the way they deal with court cases and potential court cases, including settlement.

  if they are covered for these claims then their concerns would be more about publicity than the amounts awarded or paid to the victim.. although o'brien states that the cover could possibly include any australian claims he would not have said so or even thought there was a need to reveal the information if the organization hadn't already made claims under their insurance.

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  OrphanCrow

  Listener: This is in a statement made by the Australian Branch Committee member O'Brien, the insurance is held by the WTBTS Pennsylvania. No doubt the cost of that insurance would be astronomical the more claims they are making against it but it would greatly influence the way they deal with Court cases and potential Court cases, including settlement. If they are covered for these claims then their concerns would be more about publicity than the amounts awarded or paid to the victim.
  Although O'Brien states that the cover could possibly include any Australian claims he would not have said so or even thought there was a need to reveal the information if the organization hadn't already made claims under their insurance.

  I didn't think that the Australian Branch carried liability insurance for the directors. Maybe I am reading their financial statement wrong. This is what was submitted to the Royal Commission:

  INDEMNITIES AND INSURANCE
  Under the entity's Attic/es of Assodation, Watchtower Bible & Tract Sociery ofAustralia (the "Company") is
  required to indemnify, to the extent permitted by Law, each Officer of the entity against
  • liability to third parties arising out of conduct undertaken in his capacity as an Officer of
  the entity, unless the liability arises out of conduct involving a lack of good faith, willful
  misconduct or reckless behavior; and
  • the costs and expenses of successfully defending legal proceedings arising out of conduct
  undertaken in his capacity as an Officer of the Company.

  
  The Company has not, during or since the end of the financial year, in respect of any person who is or
  has been an officer or auditor of the Company:
  • indemnified, or made any relevant agreement for indemnifying, against a liability that was
  incurred by an officer of the Company, including costs and expenses in defending legal
  proceedings; or
  • paid, or agreed to pay, a premium in respect of a contract insuring against a liability
  incurred by an officer of the Company, for the costs and expenses in defending legal
  proceedings.

  The financial statement says that each director carries $100 in personal liability.

  That doesn't seem like very much. And, the statement says nothing about insurance carried by the parent organization in New York.

  I also don't believe O'brien when he says that no records or stats on child abuse were sent up the line. That would go against everything we know about the WTS control and the need to know about everything that happens in the congregations. The WTS brags about their meticulous record keeping - why woud the child abuse numbers not also be reported?

  The WT guys are trying to cover up one lie with another lie with another lie...their house of cards is tumbling.
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  25

  How big a deal is the royal commission..? It seems to be not much...

  by _Morpheus in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  my understanding (very limited and maybe flawed) is that this commission has no teeth.

  if thats true why would the org care?

  send a few lawyers, go through the motions but in the end.... its a dog parking on a porch.

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  OrphanCrow

  The Royal Commission does have teeth.

  It sits within a much larger political and legal structure. Other countries are watching closely - Canada and Britain especially, who also conduct investigations of this kind. The results of Royal Commissions become a part of public record, archived and accessible to everyone.

  The other agency/organization that is watching closely is the Catholic Church. Dismantling the WTS structure could impact their structure as well.
  

  The effects of inquiries of this type sometimes take years to implement. Unless, of course, things are revealed that are of a criminal nature. Then, outside agencies could get involved. This testimony is valid court testimony that can reveal the ways in which the WTS is accountable legally in other courts. For example, if fraud was revealed, probably a police agency would perk up its ears.

  I think that police investigations are already underway - or soon will be - into all those 1006 paedophile files that the WT Branch did not report. The names are now known to the authorities and I would guess they will act on the ones they are able to. Those cases will be investigated. The Royal Commission would not hide them from the authorities like the WTS did. And what about "the list"? That could reveal more criminals in hiding.

  I have faith - I think changes are coming. And criminal justice.
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  10

  Royal Commission and blood transfusion refusal for children?

  by Marvin Shilmer in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i wonder if the royal commission has examined the practice of jws being led to refuse blood transfusion for children when medically necessary to save life or preserve health in relation to the question of child abuse.

  i've not heard anything about this brought up.

  is the rc concerned solely with life altering abuse only in the form of sexual molestation, or is it looking at how the organization deals with all life altering forms of abuse jw children are exposed to the result of watchtower teaching and society?

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  OrphanCrow

  Wow, Marvin. Maybe this Commission will last for years if they manage to get into the child blood sacrifices.

  That would open up a whole closet full of skeletons, wouldn't it? Wow. the testimony that the blood issue would bring forth would be groundbreaking. So far, most of the legal fights have been the JWs fighting for the right to die and let their children die. This would be the first time that the victims of the blood doctrine would get to speak.

  The issues around the blood doctrine are huge and encompass the medical world, ethics, and victims all over the world. Just think, it was an Australian doctor who recently published the figure of 100,000 JW deaths since the beginning of the blood ban. Many of those were children.

  And, to take a comprehensive look at how children have been affected by that blood doctrine, there are survivors of blood refusal whose lives and health have been permanently affected by the blood transfusion ban. Not only are there children that survived with health problems directly related to the refusal of blood, but also extended families outside of the JWs who have been affected by loss of loved ones who refused blood.

  I have my personal story that relates directly to how the blood ban affected my baby, and I am sure there are many others with similar and worse to tell. How children have been left motherless, and how children were raised with a fear of blood - the life saving fluid that the rest of the world has access to. That same fluid that Christians say that Christ shed and gave to us as a symbol of life and love. The JW children have been denied life saving blood.

  My uncle died way back in 1962, denied surgery because of the blood transfusion ban. I know of the bitterness that still lingers in his nonJW family. I spoke to his sister a couple years ago and she is still angry that her brother was denied medical treatment that could have helped him - all because of the JWs. He wasn't even baptized and my JW aunt had taken control of his care.

  I had made a comment on an earlier thread that if the two witness rule gets dismantled, through the careful reasoning of the legal minds who have done a fine job so far, the next doctrine to fall would be the blood doctrine. It is built upon the same faulty logic used to justify the two witness rule. That is why the WTS is being so stubborn on that two witness "law" - it comes from the same "law" as the blood law.

  Once the blood doctrine gets put on the table, then things could get truly ugly - the blood will literally flow up to the horse's bridles. Especially in Australia - where the bloodless JWs have already become an item of interest.

  Good thread, Marvin. I am with you on this one. Children should not be martyred like they have been on the Watchtower cover all because of a law that the WTS decided to cherry pick out of an old book.

  The WTS' disregard for children is all encompassing and cruel. The blood ban clearly supports that.
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  37

  [Day 7 - 5/8]The Royal Commissions investigation of child sexual abuse within Jehovah’s Witnesses. + VIDEO

  by C0ntr013r in

  1. watchtower
  2. child-abuse

  i give you day 7 of the royal commissions proceedings:.

  part 1 has been uploaded and part 2 and 3 will soon be available.. part 1:.

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk0lgqedy_i.

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  OrphanCrow

  TheOldHippie: then you come up with the - sorry for saying so - most stupid statement of the day. A plain lie, and no matter what one thinks about present-day JWs and WT, that does in no way make it legitime to minimize their sufferings during WWII or to try to explain it away or claim it was their own fault. Shame on you in this respect. Downplaying past tragedies because of present-day policies is just plain wrong and bad.

  Sorry, it is not a lie what I said.

  I was reponding to the comments made on the stand. I wasn't the one who brought up the WTS' revionist history, Spinks was the one who did.

  My response was accurate. Spinks left out the known history of the JWs who had work assignments with the SS when he played the "JWs in the camps" card and he did not provide accurate information. The JWs in Nazi Germany were arrested for spreading oppositional propaganda - their arrests predate the start of WW2 by many years, long before Germany started military action, and they did have work assignments with the SS like building Heinrich Himmler's castle. If Spinks was going to bring up the role of JWs in WW2, then the whole story deserves to be told.