HoldMeThrillMe: If you have a link to what you would consider a "safe" download site for his books please, if you do not mind doing so, post it if possible on this thread.
Crisis of Conscience (4th edition):
OrphanCrow
JoinedPosts by OrphanCrow
-
32
Who Owns the Copyright to Crisis of Conscience?
by Hold Me-Thrill Me inrecently there was a thread where someone asked if there was a copy of crisis of conscience they could purchase.
raymond franz it seems had limited resources yet he was able to provide crisis of conscience in printed form to what?
thousands?
-
-
OrphanCrow
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
Sorry about that table I posted - it doesn't want to hold the formatting...let me try this again:
Nope, didn't work...
Okay - link to New World Society by Marley Cole - the tables are in the appendix.
https://archive.org/details/JehovahsWitnessesTheNewWorldSocietyByMarleyCole
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
Nah, you are not being too tiring. I have spent much time trying to reconcile the discrepancies in numbers and stories that have emerged out of the WT history and the period leading up to and including WW2 is especially significant in WT history.
You had said:
You can refer to Detlef Garbe Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich – Page 47. Jehovah's Witnesses already numbered 20 000 in 1922.
I find that number to be a remarkable growth if it is compared to the numbers given to Cole by Knorr. According to Cole/Knorr, there were zero Jehovah's Witnesses in West Germany in 1918, only 4 years before Garbe's numbers reported for 1922. Six years later, in 1928, Cole/Knorr reported that the entire global membership of JWs numbered only 1,988 more (23,988) than the figures Garbe gives for German JWs alone in 1922. In six years the JWs only grew by 1,988 members worldwide? (that is, if you say that there were only the 22,000 German JWs...where are the rest?) Something doesn't add up.
The numbers don't crunch - and both sets of numbers originate with the WTS.
1918 1928
U.S. of America 743 6,040
Australia 130 305
Argentina ----- 34
Austria ----- 261
Bahamas ----- 7
Brazil ----- 18
British Guiana ----- 15
British Isles 2,784 3,066
British West Indies
(Trinidad) ----- 189
Canada ----- 998
Costa Rica 73 -----
Cyprus ----- 4
Czechoslovakia ----- 106
Denmark 26 324
Finland ----- 305
France ----- 447
Saar ----- 60
Germany, West ----- 9,755
Greece 12 77
India 2 69
Jamaica 50 84
Netherlands ----- 57
Newfoundland 5 -----
New Zealand ----- 73
Nigeria ----- 7
Norway 15 85
Poland 20 430
Russia ----- 16
South Africa ----- 58
Surinam 8 7
Sweden ----- 253
Switzerland ----- 763______ ______
TOTAL 3,868 23,988
...would those who disagreed with the Tower not be ostracized by JW members in the camps?
They were. There are documented accounts of the Bible Students/JW’s in the camps being anything but cohesive on many occasions, with their behavior towards each other being, in contrast, mean spirited and exercising shunning behaviour, just depending on how they were acting in relation to the ‘group rules’ or to the doctrinal dogma. There are accounts of some Bible Students/JW’s being ostracized and treated badly in the camps by their own group – exactly like they do today.
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
Finally I don't know where Marley Cole got the numbers
From Nathan Knorr. The book was a collaboration between Knorr and Cole. The book was presented as an "outside/independent" voice at the time it was published, without revealing that Cole was actually a Jehovah's Witness himself.
-
21
How do you know Satan didn't inspire the Bible?
by Coded Logic injws believe that satan knows things about the natural world (like how it was formed).. they also believe that satan can influence events (even fulfill prophecies).. the bible is the source of great confusion and the vast majority of christians (2.2 billion people) believe it but do not have "accurate knowledgetm".. from the jw point of view, wouldn't it be more likely that satan inspired the bible than an all loving god?.
-
-
OrphanCrow
Hmmmm....
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
Good material, Saint.
Number crunching JW membership is a formidable task. There are so many factors to consider and conflicting numbers to deal with. It is difficult to sort othrough the estimates, the sources of data, etc.
Your theories are reasonably sound, at least, based on the information that is available. There is one thing though, that might need consideration. You speak of the Bible Students/JW men who signed the declaration, or simply went inactive, as being conscripted, and then returning after the war. I think it is reasonable to assume that not many returned. A large number would have died as war casualties.
I still, however, hard a hard time reconciling the numbers of JWs with the numbers of the Bible Students. The WTS always claims all the Bible Student numbers as their own, when there is much historical documentation that many German Bible Students did not consider themselves part of the WTS in the years leading up to WW2 and during the war. The numbers that the WTS claim as their own are padded with many Bible Students who did not follow the Rutherford/JW doctrine and who had already left to form groups such as "Free Bible Students Association". Those Bible Students who had broke away from the WTS would also have worn the purple triangle in the camps but they would not have considered themselves Jehovah's witnesses or part of the WTS.
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
Now either mass conversions occurred or the coast was now clear for inactive witnesses to return to the fold. Which is more plausible?
Both are plausible. I think both reasons account for the increase. I don't see why it has to be one or the other.*to add -
I'll admit the 22 000 may be overblown by about 2 000. Penton 2004 (Jehovah's Witnesses and the Third Reich: Sectarian Politics Under Persecution) reports 20 000 witnesses in 1933 which aligns well with the memorial attendance (25 000) which is always a greater figure but is also a good indicator of approximate adherents. The Watchtower has historically been pedantic about the memorial figures. I took the figure of 20 000 and 25 000 and took an average and then rounded it down.
James Penton is using figures given by the WTS.
Marley Cole, in his book The New World Society, gives the figure for JWs in Germany in 1928 as 9,755. That number also originated from WTS records.
It does not seem plausible that the increase in Germany during the five years between 1928 and 1933 was over double. If the WTS numbers are to be believed, then you also have to believe that there were 12,245 Germans who converted during those 5 years - almost 2500 per year (using 22,000 as the number in 1933).
Oh well...maybe the Germans were really receptive to Rutherford's message after he disrupted the German Watchtower in 1925, causing a major schism in the religion.
-
16
A historic note on the amount of faithful witnesses in Germany
by Saintbertholdt inwhat percentage of witnesses were actually faithful in germany after 1936?.
what i mean by the above question is what percentage of witnesses actually remained active?
(those who went to underground meetings/memorials and attempted field ministry).
-
-
OrphanCrow
The historical numbers that the WTS throws around about JWs in Germany during WW2 are far from accurate.
Factors that the WTS fails to account for:
- the WT was a fragmented religion leading up to, and including, WW2. There was a major split in the German WT around 1925 that saw Conrad Binkele leave the WTS and continue to support the "Earnest Bible Students". Many of the numbers that the WTS claim as their own were actually "Bible Students" who did not follow the WTS - they were not JWs who followed the WTS.
- the purple triangle that the JWs claim as being exclusively their own was also wore by other prisoners even though the JWs/Bible Students made up the majority of the purple triangles.
From the book Persecution and Resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses During the Nazi Regime by Hans Hesse:
pg 72 - the purple triangles were assigned 1937/8
The Purple Triangle designated the following prisoner groups:
- Bible Students
- Seventh Day Adventists
- Baptists
- pacifists
- possibly New Apostolic community
Final footnote: The 1 January 1949 Watchtower reported that the active number had surpassed the 1933 number (29,172 witnesses). It would seem most of the inactive lost sheep had rapidly returned just four years after the persecution ended.
Included in the the number of JWs in Germany after the war would be all the SS officers and guards who converted to the JW religion. I have often wondered how many actually did convert. After the magical year of 1942, the JWs who were still in the camps (those who didn't get assigned to a position of privilege working with the SS), were split up into separate barracks and received little opposition to their conversion preaching. Some SS guards and officers and other German citizens converted during that time and after. It was very easy for some Germans to substitute one "god" (Hitler) for another "god" (Jehovah) and to adopt the dream of a "Thousand Year Reign of Christ" in favor of a "Thousand Year Reign of the Third Reich".
-
25
GB Not Providing Food-Helpers Write Articles
by TakeOffTheCrown inwhy does the governing body depend on the helpers to write watchtower articles and the information in other publications?
why does the governing body not write these articles themselves?
they depend on the helpers to compose/write this information.
-
-
OrphanCrow
It must be quite a challenge for the WTS writers to try to keep coming up with different ways to tell the same basic story over and over again.
Maybe that is why the WTS keeps inventing so many rules all the time. The religious doctrine is frankly, boring as hell. Like...how many times do you need to tell it? Discussing rules, though, can fill a lot of space in literature, justifying the monthly publishing business.
The Watchtower magazines remind me of some of the old pulp fiction genre or mystery novels and films. Once you read one or see the movie, you always could predict the plot. It is like watching a B grade movie that just regurgitates the same old story that has been told countless times before.
I have read some of the Rutherford publications. With so many of the books that were published under his name, the title changed, the intro changed, and then it was the same old, same old, for the rest of the book. New illustrations, a new cover and a few subtle little twists and turns...but basically, the same f**ing book.
The WTS brags about having the highest circulation of any magazine with their Watchtower rag. I don't think, though, that it would ever win any writing awards.
-
162
Lorenz Reibling gives interview about real estate
by OrphanCrow inthis interview was posted april 16, 2015 on youtube.
lorenz reibling's replies to the reporter in argentina are in english.. lorenz reibling is intimately connected to the watchtower society and, according to some sources, is a jw himself.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3ssa-9yvii.
so who is lorenz reibling?
-
-
OrphanCrow
Notice how Stoops describes the film "Name of God":
This independent documentary answers these questions and more with solid and convincing archaeological proof. It will encourage an open minded person to ask; “Is God’s name important to me?”.
If you know someone who says, “I will consider anything as long as it’s not from Jehovah’s Witnesses”, this video may be of interest to them. It is a very easy to watch and informative video.
Is it an "independent documentary"? Not at all. It is financed by JWs, a JW contributed to the film, and....it is made by a JW film company.
http://www.dreilindenfilm.de/index.php
Dreilindenfilm is owned by Fritz Poppenburg. Another JW.
(translated from German)
ABOUT US
Dreilinden film has existed for about 10 years and brings out mainly documentaries, which are marketed in their own home as DVDs. In addition to its own productions, films from foreign productions are taken as long as they fit the company profile.
The thematic focus is the scientific criticisms of Darwinian theory, ten films are to far in front. This range of high - partly award-winning - films takes Dreilinden film a unique position in the German-speaking countries.
In addition, the team of Dreilinden film strives to true enlightenment in areas of vital importance, such as the protection of unborn human life. However, our company owes its existence not only its own efforts, but is in significant part on the moral - attributable ethical descent of the prevailing media operation (only the public broadcasting consumes an annual budget of about 7.5 billion euros) to pass the task seems to spread disorientation and misinformation.
The many thoughtful contemporaries who have noticed this fact and order at Dreilinden movie DVDs, would like to take this opportunity. Fritz Poppenberg, September 2010And who is being targeted by this "independent" film that is made by Jehovah's Witnesses?
From Stoops:
It is being premiered in public forums and colleges all over the world to people with various backgrounds and beliefs.
There we go again. The JWs are not telling anyone that this is a JW film and are passing it off as independent in order to "spread disorientation and misinformation" (to use Poppenburg's words). These tactics are so dishonest.
The JW film maker, Fritz Poppenburg, has also produced documentaries about the WTS version of the JWs in WW2. The WTS' commitment to revisionist history is remarkable.
The WTS has infiltrated the medical community with anit-blood films that are produced by JWs and pretending that they are "independent", and they do the same with everything else that they want to spread disinformation about. The web of deceit just doesn't seem to quit and the WTS isn't satisfied with only pulling the wool over its members' eyes, they are also targeting the academic world and the medical community with their propaganda. The WTS deception has insidiously spread far beyond the confines of the Tower.