OrphanCrow

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Posts by OrphanCrow

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  44

  Is it possible to use this thread to compile watchtowers Armageddon illustrations

  by jambon1 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i was informed today by a jw that the watchtower doesn't use images and propaganda to instil fear.

  i would really like to see a compilation of all their armageddon illustrations.

  maybe a thread or web page already exists that had this content.. the one i am really wanting is the most recent picture of the witnesses in the basement during the tribulation.. this will be a massive help so thank you..

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  OrphanCrow

  From the 1958 Paradise book:

  
  
  
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  10

  Lett's pinky ring is back

  by Daniel1555 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  if you thought that stephen lett came to realize finally, that wearing a pinky ring doesn't seem modest, you are wrong.. in the introduction video to the video "what is true love?

  " of the convention releases day 3, he is as lunatic as ever and wearing his pinky ring again.. thank you, governing body.

  let "lett" talk in front of the worldwide convention audience and in your broadcasts, and you will wake up more jw's than any other means might do..

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  OrphanCrow

  Oh no! Another pinky thread.

  I finally got curious and typed "what does wearing a pinky ring mean?" into google.

  This showed up:

  "Wearing a ring on the little, or pinky, finger of the hand can have any one of a number of meanings, some of which are mutually contradictory. It may also have no other significance at all beyond the personal preference of the wearer.
  
  Homosexuality
  In the 1950s through the 1970s, wearing a pinky ring was sometimes used as a covert sign of male homosexuality. Judy Grahn in her book "Another Mother Tongue" writes that in 1959, the year she came out, that rings worn on the pinky were known as a secret way to communicate homosexuality.
  Engineers
  American and Canadian engineers sometimes wear a steel or iron ring to signify oath-bound membership in an engineering fellowship.
  Signet Rings and Aristocracy
  The signet ring, a type of ring bearing a family crest and used to seal letters and mark other documents, was traditionally worn on the little finger. As a result, rings worn on the little finger became associated with aristocracy in general.
  Organized Crime
  Members of organized crime are reputed to wear pinky rings as well. In more recent times, hip-hop artists with a "gangsta" style adopted pinky rings in imitation of their Italian-American counterparts.
  Luck
  Some people believe that wearing a pinky ring can bring the wearer luck. Gamblers, in particular, are prone to sporting one."
  Source:
  "Another Mother Tongue;" Judy Grahn; 1984
  Order of the Engineer
  The Iron Ring
  "The New York Times;" Ba-Da-Bing! Thumbs Up for the Pinkie Ring; Jan. 23, 2000
  More Information:
  Swade: Symbols

  
  

  And from a 2014 article on businessinsider, advice for men on how to wear rings fashionably:

  The Pinky Ring
  

  This is often the first choice for a man who wants to wear a “statement” ring.
  

  Pinky rings have a couple of advantages: they don’t have religious or cultural associations in most cultures (unlike the ring finger), and, like rings on the fourth finger, they don’t touch or interfere with the index/pointer finger at all.
  

  It also isolates the ring from your body a bit, making it more of an eye-popping statement. As a result, pinky rings tend to be among the “busiest” or flashiest of designs. It’s where you wear things when you want attention paid to them.

  Oh. So, according to businessinsider, the man who wears a pinky ring has a large ego, the pinky ring is a 'statement'.

  Well, ya know what they say about 'big' men with big egos....the same thing they say about the ones who drive big cars.

  
  
  
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  88

  Damned if they do, Damned if they don't

  by FusionTheism in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i see an attitude among some people here which is not very helpful.

  i can understand it, but still, it's not constructive or helpful.. if you condemn the society for not changing, but then you also condemn them when they do change in a positive way, what incentive or motive does that provide for the people at the society to ever want to change for the better?.

  also, what does that attitude look like to current witnesses who are having doubts?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Fusion: To the people with this attitude: What exactly is it that you WANT the Society to do?

  Well, I am not sure where i would fit on your attitude measurement scale...but, I can throw out a suggestion as to what the WTS should be required to do.

  They should be required to give a certain percentage of their gross take towards cult recovery. This would include money that would establish safe shelters and havens for the ones who are damaged by the WTS restrictive policies.

  The WTS should be assessed a 'damage tax'.

  It would be responsible acknowledgement of the problems that the rest of society is burdened with because of the WTS organization.

  For an example, in the province that I live, it is mandatory for the Liquor and Gaming Authority to use a set percentage of the funds collected from casinos and liquor sales to combat liquor and gaming addictions.

  The WTS should be held to the same standards and be made to contribute a significant amount of money towards those victims who need cult recovery treatment.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Eden: Also, one thing that I have always wondered. In several publications, it is mentioned an episode where Hitler receives a letter from Rutherford where he threats that Jehovah will destroy the Reich, and Hitler explodes in rage and swears something like "This race shall be exterminated from Germany". I always wondered: Who witnessed this? Where is this account taken from? Or it it all just made-up stuff?

  The alleged quote from Hitler has been reported to have occurred after the "letter to Hitler" was sent. You can find the letter quite easily in various places - it was called the "Declaration of Facts". When the letter didn't get the WTS' printing presses released, Rutherford responded with a huge leaflet campaign that resulted in many arrests. It was after that leaflet retaliation that it was reported that Hitler "flew into a rage" and uttered the quote that has been reported in different forms since then.

  Jehovah‘s Witnesses in the Divine Purpose reports the incident:
  

  ...Karl R.A. Wittig, a plenipotentiary of General Ludendorff, deposed in an affidavit sworn 13 November 1945:
  "On October 7, 1934, having been previously summoned, I visited Dr. Wilhelm Frick, at that time Minister of the Interior of the Reich and Prussia, in his home office of the Reich. . . . During my discussion with Dr. Frick, Hitler suddenly appeared and began taking part in the conversation. . . . Dr. Frick showed Hitler a number of telegrams protesting against the Third Reich’s persecution of the Bible Students, saying: ”If the Bible Students do not immediately get in line we will act against them using the strongest means.”
  After which Hitler jumped to his feet and with clenched fists hysterically screamed: ’This brood will be exterminated in Germany!” Four years after this discussion I was able, by my own observations, to convince myself, during my seven years in protective custody in the hell of the Nazi concentration camps at Sachsenhausen, Flossenburg and Mauthausen-I was in prison until released by the Allies-that Hitler’s outburst of anger was not just an idle threat. No other group of prisoners of the named concentration camps was exposed to the sadism of the SS-soldiery in such a fashion as the Bible Students were. It was a sadism marked by an unending chain of physical and mental tortures, the likes of which no language in the world can express."

  The above account claims that Karl Wittig deposed his affidavit in November 1945.

  However, in 1938, Rutherford, in Face The Facts, said that the following was Hitler's response:

  These so-called “Earnest Bible Students” are trouble-makers; they disturb the harmonious life amongst the Germans; I consider them quacks; I do not tolerate that the German Catholics be besmirched in such a manner by this American “Judge” Rutherford; I dissolve the “Earnest Bible Students” in Germany; their property I dedicate to the people’s welfare; I will have all their literature confiscated.”

  Hitler's words have also been reported as being:

  "I will exterminate the Earnest Bible Students" or "I will exterminate this brood!".

  It appears like the quote was originally printed in Watchtower literature, and has been used extensively since then. The quote pops up in various places, and it is difficult to find the original source...I think the original source was Rutherford. Wittig's affidavit was sworn years after Rutherford and others had already said it.

  Irkr: Thank you for this. As usual there is so much more than the tales we've been told.
  Any idea what the symbolism of the purple triangle is about?

  There is always more to every story. Following the history of events during and after WW2 is interesting, especially when examining documentation that has been released since the 50 year moratorium passed in 1995 that was placed on certain classified information pertaining to the war.

  The purple triangles were assigned 1937/8. Hans Hesse, on pg 72 of Persecution and Resistance of Jehovah's Witnesses During the Nazi Regime tells us that the Purple Triangle designated the following prisoner groups:

  - Bible Students
  - Seventh Day Adventists
  - Baptists
  - pacifists
  - possibly New Apostolic community

  I have read elsewhere that some Catholic prisoners also wore the purple triangle. The category was not exclusive to the Bible Students.

  If a Bible Student was also a Jew, they were required to wear a yellow badge in addition to the purple triangle.

  By the end of the war, there were many imprisoned JWs who were not required to wear the purple triangle. They were working on estates and elsewhere that allowed them to wear regular clothing instead of camp uniforms, and they were considered "partially free", having been released on a handshake.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Kaik, a good source for the Charles Russell's dual covenant and his link to Zionism, and Rutherford's subsequent shift to a far different doctrine with the JW religion, can be found here:

  http://www.agsconsulting.com/articles/zionists.htm
  
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein: I'm getting the impression that Rutherford cranked up a antisemitic stance during the war as a means to better position and appeal to Hitler's own antisemitic ideologies. Went with the wave as it were preconceived that in doing so in toward making the JWS look better or supportive to the political ideology of the time in Europe, propagated by Hitler's Nazism.

  Of course. That is why I have made the assertion earlier that the WTS was far from "politically neutral". Their political positioning was reflected in their doctrinal positions.

  What Rutherford's shift in doctrine reflected was actually a political shift - one that moved away from the Bible Students' left-wing political stance and placed the WT corporation solidly in the camp of right wing politics.

  In the political climate of the time, left wing politics was associated with the Bolshevism that was in control of Russia - the country that was feared to become what it promised to do - rule the world and make the entire world communist. The Bolsheviks were mostly Jews. And to the right of that, on the other end of the political spectrum, right wing politics manifested itself in Fascism, the Nazis being its own particular brand of far right wing politics.

  The religious doctrines were political statements.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein: When one reads one of Rutherford's books he wrote on the subject in 1925, he was certainly taking the position as a pro Zionist.
  Kaik: Some of the ideas in that book are truly ridiculous as Rutherford lacked any understanding of Jewish faith and history. For example he said that Jews must accept NT and Messiah insisting that Satan had blind them etc.

  I think it may be more helpful to use the term dual covenant theology instead of Zionism when discussing the difference between Russell's Zionist stance and Rutherford's movement towards a California based Jerusalem.

  Russell's doctrine put forth the view that Jews had a separate, special covenant with 'God', and that the Christians had their own, separate covenant. Hence, Russell's doctrine was a dual covenant understanding that did not require the conversion of Jews to Christianity, or their acceptance of the Messiah.

  And that is where Rutherford's doctrine differed sharply - his was a replacement doctrine that required the Jews to accept the NT and the Messiah. It would take a few more years before Rutherford dropped the "return to Palestine" and replaced that holy place with his mansion, but he had already veered sharply away from Russell's dual covenant doctrine by his statements requiring the Jews to "accept the Messiah". in 1925.

  Rutherford replaced the Jews in the covenant doctrine with the Jws. Replacement doctrine.

  
  

  
  
• 
  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  Finkelstein:

  Sounds bit like a white Aryan racist, maybe propping up his own personal identity as a white pure Christian ?

  
  

  If anyone else has some writings from Rutherford particularly focused on his perceptions of the Jews please forward it. Would be interesting.

  This is a statement that Rutherford made during one of his talks at the same Children of The King convention in 1941:

  The attack we have got to make is just what Jesus did. You know that when Jesus was on earth the religionists wore long robes. They didn't have much of lace curtains at that time; they wore phylacteries, greased their head with goat grease, and smelled a good deal like billies. And, no doubt, that is where Jesus got the thought that it was a 'goat' class. He meant the Jews of that class of billy-goats with long whiskers, and long faces that smelled to the top of the mountain.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  I got that OrpahnCrow but you have to agree that the JWS under Rutherford weren't exactly showing signs of antisemitism, particularity when taking on the name of the Jewish god and refusing the cross, not calling their meeting places churches, being openly aggressive toward the Catholic church and so on.

  You have valid points but it is the attitude of the JWs, fostered by a leadership that made anti-semitic statements in their literature and sermons, that reveals their anti-semitic position. There are places online that discuss the anti-Jew statements of Rutherford in public, and there are places in the WT literature where it is obvious.
  

  Here is an example of the attitude of the American JWs in 1941. From the convention report of The Children of The King convention held in St. Louis.

  The author is describing the children who were seated on the grass of the arena for Rutherford's final address to them and after describing how the children all filed up on stage to receive a book from the man himself, it says this:

  But now the man has gone, and you still look on - and are surprised to note that the 15,000 children are on the blond side - brown hair, yellow hair, light brown heads - only a few really black ones, and you don't quite understand why this is so, but it is. And you come away feeling refreshed as though you had seen something exceedingly rare in this evil day - something clean and honest and pure; something unforgettable - a promise of that sweetness and harmony which will be in God's kingdom.

  Rutherford made many statements vocalizing his dislike of the Jews.
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  109

  Did judge Rutherford piss off Hitler

  by greenhornet in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  the jws at the time in germany where considered part of the aryan race, (since they were not jews).

  then things changed for the jws after rutherford mailed a letter to hitler bragging about jehovahs kingdom on earth.. so can we add this to the bloodshed that that the watchtower corp is responsible for?.

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  OrphanCrow

  FusionThesim: I think anti-Watchtower bias and bitterness is showing through on some of these comments.

  I disagree.

  What I have said and presented is done with as least bias as possible. The bulk of my research is from scholarly accounts written by respected historians. What I am trying to do is add context and knowledge to the existing accounts that are used to document the WTS and the Jw involvement in a very important time in political world history.

  I would love to report that the WTS' accounts are complete, true and honest. Unfortunately, I can't. It would be practising dishonest research practises and I am unable to adopt the stance of the uninformed and disinformed.

  Yes, there were many heroes of all different kinds that had a role to play in the horrors of WW2. Not all of the stories are told - or understood.

  Do we blame the Jewish victims in the Holocaust for practicing their faith or for speaking out against Hitler?
  Most people usually consider them to be brave heroes.

  Of course we don't blame the victims.

  But, it is helpful to know what it is that happened so that religion isn't used as a scapegoat for political reasons. Sticking to the 'religious persecution' model is a method that relies on the emotional response of people - religious thinking obscures rationals facts.

  Hitler's hatred of the Jews has commonly been understood and presented as a religious persecution. However, Hitler's hatred towards the Jews was a political hatred. The Jews in Germany controlled the leftwing party - the Bolsheviks. In 1925, when Mein Kampf was published, Hitler viewed the Bolsheviks as the largest threat to German Nationalism and his greatest political enemy. The Jews weren't his 'religious enemy' - the Jews were Hitler's political enemy.

  Hitler believed that if the Bolsheviks/Jews, who has so recently took power in Russia following the bloodbath of the 1917 Revolution, gained power in Germany, that his beloved Germany would be eternally lost and ruined. Hitler was anti-communist, anti-Bolshevik, anti-Jew. Religion was an after effect, and consequently an identifying feature, of political positioning.