Posts by OrphanCrow

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

OrphanCrow

Jonathan, Vivane's position is supported by evidence.

The discovery of the Ugarit tablets in 1928 has shed much light on the cultures that influenced the Old Testament writings.

http://www.theology.edu/ugarbib.htm

The Ugaritic Pantheon.
The prophets of the Old Testament rail against Baal, Asherah and various other gods on nearly every page. The reason for this is simple to understand; the people of Israel worshipped these gods along with, and sometimes instead of, Yahweh, the God of Israel. This Biblical denunciation of these Canaanite gods received a fresh face when the Ugaritic texts were discovered, for at Ugarit these were the very gods that were worshipped.
El was the chief god at Ugarit. Yet El is also the name of God used in many of the Psalms for Yahweh; or at least that has been the presupposition among pious Christians. Yet when one reads these Psalms and the Ugaritic texts one sees that the very attributes for which Yahweh is acclaimed are the same for which El is acclaimed. In fact, these Psalms were most likely originally Ugaritic or Canaanite hymns to El which were simply adopted by Israel, much like the American National Anthem was set to a beer hall tune by Francis Scott Key. El is called the “father of men”, “creator”, and “creator of the creation”. These attributes are also granted Yahweh by the Old Testament.
For instances, read KTU 1. 2 I 13-32 and compare it to many of the Psalms. Also, read Ps 82:1, 89:6-8mn!).
In 1 Kings 22:19-22 we read of Yahweh meeting with his heavenly council. This is the very description of heaven which one finds in the Ugaritic texts. For in those texts the “sons of god” are the sons of El.
Other deities worshipped at Ugarit were El Shaddai, El Elyon, and El Berith. All of these names are applied to Yahweh by the writers of the Old Testament. What this means is that the Hebrew theologians adopted the titles of the Canaanite gods and attributed them to Yahweh in an effort to eliminate them. If Yahweh is all of these there is no need for the Canaanite gods to exist! This process is known as assimilation.
Besides the chief god at Ugarit there were also lesser gods, demons, and goddesses. The most important of these lesser gods were Baal (familiar to all readers of the Bible), Asherah (also familiar to readers of the Bible), Yam (the god of the sea) and Mot (the god of death). What is of great interest here is that Yam is the Hebrew word for sea and Mot is the Hebrew word for death! Is this because the Hebrews also adopted these Canaanite ideas as well? Most likely they did.
One of the most interesting of these lesser deities, Asherah, plays a very important role in the Old Testament. There she is called the wife of Baal; but she is also known as the consort of Yahweh! That is, among some Yahwists, Ahserah is Yahweh’s female counterpart!
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As had already been mentioned, one of the more important lesser deities at Ugarit was Baal. Baal is described as the “rider on the clouds” in KTU 1.3 II 40. Interestingly enough, this description is also used of Yahweh in Psalm 68:5.
In the Old Testament Baal is named 58 times in the singular and 18 times in the plural. The prophets protested constantly against the love affair the Israelites had with Baal (cf. Hosea 2:19, for example). The reason Israel was so attracted to Baal was that, first of all, some Israelites viewed Yahweh as a God of the desert and so when they arrived in Canaan they thought it only proper to adopt Baal, the god of fertility. As the old saying goes, “whose land, his god”. For these Israelites Yahweh was useful in the desert but not much help in the land.
There is one Ugaritic text which seems to indicate that among the inhabitants of Ugarit, Yahweh was viewed as another son of El. KTU 1.1 IV 14 says:
sm . bny . yw . ilt
“The name of the son of god, Yahweh.”
This text seems to show that Yahweh was known at Ugarit, though not as the Lord but as one of the many sons of El.
Among the other gods worshipped at Ugarit there are Dagon, Tirosch, Horon, Nahar, Resheph, Kotar Hosis, Shachar (who is the equivalent of Satan), and Shalem. The folks at Ugarit were also plagued by a host of demons and lesser gods. The people at Ugarit saw the desert as the place which was most inhabited by demons (and they were like the Israelites in this belief). KTU 1.102:15-28 is a list of these demons.
One of the most famous of the lesser deities at Ugarit was a chap named Dan’il. There is little doubt that this figure corresponds to the Biblical Daniel; while predating him by several centuries. This has led many Old Testament scholars to suppose that the Canonical prophet was modeled on him. His story is found in KTU 1.17 - 1.19.

49

Elders in Spain Steal Millions from Congregation

by cappytan in

these men are appointed by holy spirit,.

here is the source: http://www.economiadigital.es/es/notices/2015/01/la-fiscalia-imputa-una-estafa-de-mas-de-170-millones-de-euros-a-una-congregacion-de-testigos-de-jeho-65161.php.

basically, if you don't know spanish, it boils down to this: (my personal editorial of what i've read).

OrphanCrow

they broke the rule, you can steal from individual jws and get away with it but never, never steal from the organization.

Blondie...can you elaborate on involvement of "the organization" in this affair? Maybe it is because I have limited skills in Spanish...but...I didn't pick up that the elders were stealing from the organization.

How does this latest episode of thievery within the JWs involve "the organization"?

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

OrphanCrow

Some things in early Christianity can be traced to earlier beliefs from other faiths thru time....but there is only one religion where a man claimed to be God and 2000 years later, 1 out of every 5 people [or more] on the whole planet believe it.
just saying

TTYSYF... and that describes the nature of 'man'...it doesn't say anything at all about the nature of a 'divine' being.

jus' sayin'

49

Elders in Spain Steal Millions from Congregation

by cappytan in

these men are appointed by holy spirit,.

here is the source: http://www.economiadigital.es/es/notices/2015/01/la-fiscalia-imputa-una-estafa-de-mas-de-170-millones-de-euros-a-una-congregacion-de-testigos-de-jeho-65161.php.

basically, if you don't know spanish, it boils down to this: (my personal editorial of what i've read).

OrphanCrow

The events date back to 2001, when 14 "elders" (the name by which Jehovah's Witnesses know their spiritual shepherds) used the ceremonies religious to collect from his parish cash "to build a hospital in Barcelona, that under our direction, do not provide blood transfusions to patients of our worship."

There is a hospital in Spain that offers bloodless surgery.

http://www.teknonbarcelona.com/en/medical-specialties/bloodless-medicine-and-surgery

It is the same hospital that offers proton beam therapy.

http://www.teknonbarcelona.com/en/instituto-oncologico/radiation-oncology/shaped-beam-radiosurgery-novalis-radiotherapy-unit

49

Elders in Spain Steal Millions from Congregation

by cappytan in

these men are appointed by holy spirit,.

here is the source: http://www.economiadigital.es/es/notices/2015/01/la-fiscalia-imputa-una-estafa-de-mas-de-170-millones-de-euros-a-una-congregacion-de-testigos-de-jeho-65161.php.

basically, if you don't know spanish, it boils down to this: (my personal editorial of what i've read).

OrphanCrow

So.

They are finally getting caught.

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Onthewayout - The purple triangles were worn by all prisoners who were in the camps for religious reasons. All religious prisoners - including 7th Day Adventists, Baptists, Catholics, Bible Students, Jehovah's witness....if a person was in the camps for religious reasons they were assigned a purple triangle. The JWs were the majority within that group.

.

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Hi Terry

Numbers and authority go hand in hand. Numbers are used to legitimize ideas and phenomena. It is this notion that "if you can measure it, it is real and has value". Also, the WT organization has this intense need to legitimize itself for legal and tax reasons.

When I was a kid, I remember the absolute unquestioning acceptance of the Society's number crunching. There was the attitude that the numbers were infallible. It was implicit in the doctrine and ideology - because the WTS taught the Truth of Jehovah, then it would be blasphemous beyond comprehension to question something as material as numbers. Numbers were as true as God was true. More true, in fact. If you questioned the numbers, that was the unforgivable sin - the numbers were like the Holy Spirit - Truth was unquestionable truth, and the numbers were part of the whole package.

There was this strange idea that the numbers were real material evidence collected in the here and now and the numbers could not, and would never be, inaccurate. The numbers were big letter TRUTH. Jehovah God was invisible but numbers were real - both infallible.

It is a strange loop of belief, where the numbers prove themselves, which goes something like this "...the numbers are true because they are numbers. And the Society is infallible in the collection of numbers. The Society speaks for God and numbers don't lie."

The problem that happens when searching for data on the Society is that they were almost the only ones collecting their own data - they own their numbers. And there is this strange qualifying or confirming of numbers that happens in the academic world - I have read researchers' justifications for using the data released by the WTS that goes something like this:

"We can trust the WTS' numbers because those academics who write about the WTS and who used to be members of the JW religion use those numbers, therefore the numbers must be true." In other words, the 'apostate' community using the numbers released by the WTS gives those numbers authority in larger circles.

i have a problem with that - when legitimate researchers who have come from the WTS community don't step outside of their bubble to question the data. There is this strange phenomena where the doctrine is questioned, the structure is questioned, but the last bastion of truth is held....the wall is never scaled...the numbers hold.

I am not sure why this occurs - it is as though the numbers are the only real truthful thing left: "... the numbers must be true, even if the WTS has lied about everything else, certainly they wouldn't/didn't lie about the numbers???"

But...think about it...the WTS is not truthful about doctrine. They have a history of lying. Why trust their numbers?

Is it a neurosis? It's certainly a mania.

Corporate power structures are neurotic unto themselves - they are madness personified. Insanity is implicit within the structure.

Crow

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Are Watchtower statistics really trustworthy?

No. Absolutely not.

I have explored the differing reports of JW membership leading up to and following WW2 and I think that the internal division within the Bible Student organization during the 20s and 30s in Germany had much to do with the discrepancy in numbers that you will find from differing sources.

There was a major split in the WTS in Germany in 1925 - Rutherford made a trip to that country and gave the boot to Conrad Binkele, who was in charge of the German WTS, resulting in many of the Bible Students following Binkle, rather than Rutherford. In Germany, even after the name change in 1931 to Jehovah's witnesses, the name of 'Bible Student' was used to encompass all of the Bible Students - both those who stayed loyal to Joe's Army and those who followed the 'original' Bible Student group, led by Conrad Binkele who founded the Free Bible Students in Germany in 1928.

I believe that many of the discrepancies in membership numbers in Germany, both in and out of the concentration camps, has much to do with that split not being recognized by outsiders to the WTS, and that the WTS has exploited that misunderstanding. By including all of the Bible Students in the 'JW' numbers, the Watchtower Society has been able to inflate their numbers and massage them whenever appropriate.

The separation of 'Bible Student' from 'Jehovah's witness' was based upon a doctrinal shift - those who stayed with the Bible Students held onto the Zionist doctrine started by Russell, and those who followed Joe adopted the replacement theology. In effect, there were two distinct groups of Bible Students - one doctrine (Zionist theology) put those who followed it in direct opposition to Nazi ideology. And the other doctrine - Joe's replacement Theology - was more compatible to the Nazi position.

It took Rutherford until 1932(?) to make that about face in doctrine, just in time to make the plea he did to Hitler in 1933.

The WW2 concentration camps, in effect, became an ideal place for the 'sifting' within the German WTS organization to take place, and that could be the explanation for why there are differing accounts of how the JWs were treated in the camps - those who followed the 'old' Zionist theology (Bible Students) were treated far more harshly than those who adopted the new replacement theology (JWs).

The Watchtower Society has embraced all the WW2 purple triangles as their own - when in reality, many of those purple triangles were not part of the Watchtower Society at the time.

17

Rev 17:9 - Thoughts?

by leaving_quietly in

rev 17:9 describes something about the "woman", the harlot, babylon the great:.

here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: the seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.

and there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.. i was dreaming about this verse last night, so i thought i'd look it up.

OrphanCrow

I have long thought, ever since I was a child, that the seven mountains might not mean what WTBTS says it means, but that it may mean seven continents or seven seas instead.

And therein lies the beauty of myth.

Myth is a template that can be experienced at any time and place in history. Myth weaves itself into the fabric of human existence and functions as the thread that holds time together.

The seven mountains, seven kings...whatever metaphorical device that the myth has been placed within...can mean whatever you choose it to mean. The value of myth is finding your place within it.

Here is an example - at one time, Russia was guarded on her borders by seven Cossack clans. These clans were called "the seven pearls of Russia". Why can not the seven mountains be interpreted as the seven Cossack clans in that point in history?

Of course the meaning/view of myth changes throughout time - pick an interpretation that fits your life and go with it...myth is meant to be flexible.

71

TO THE STUPID ATHEISTS:

by atheist_R_stupid in

being that this is not "ex jws" and in fact, more driven by atheists talking a bunch of crap, im not even going to address you people like you know anything about jws because you dont.

nor am i going to assume you know the bible because none of you do.. and yes, im speaking down at you all because you men have actually went out your way to make a site to speak down at an entire group of people.

yet i bet you cant even handle a single uswer talking down at you, like you talk down about jws can you?.

OrphanCrow

Why is this thread still alive?

Maybe it is still alive because it is sort of fun to hang out around the water cooler once in a while and take a break from work.

:)