Rev 17:9 - Thoughts?

by leaving_quietly 17 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  leaving_quietly

  Rev 17:9 describes something about the "woman", the harlot, Babylon the great:
  

  Here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: The seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top. And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.

  I was dreaming about this verse last night, so I thought I'd look it up. I have long thought, ever since I was a child, that the seven mountains might not mean what WTBTS says it means, but that it may mean seven continents or seven seas instead. This is because Rev 17:1 says the harlot sits on "many waters". I don't recall much about my dream, only the words "seven continents" in relation to this verse. So, I thought I'd look into it further this morning. But, this post is not about the seven mountains. Bear with me.
  

  I came across a blog posting about the verse that asked an interesting question:

  On what basis can anyone claim that the present tense John wrote is anything other than a reference to a state of affairs existing in his time?

  http://www.patheos.com/blogs/exploringourmatrix/2012/03/is-revelation-179-10-the-decisive-evidence-against-the-end-times-view-of-revelation.html
  

  WTBTS explanation is this:

  The seven heads of that ferocious beast stand for seven “mountains,” or seven “kings.” Both terms are used Scripturally to refer to governmental powers. (Jeremiah 51:24, 25; Daniel 2:34, 35, 44, 45) In the Bible, six world powers are mentioned as having an impact on the affairs of God’s people: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome. Of these, five had already come and gone by the time John received Revelation, whereas Rome was still very much a world power. This corresponds well with the words, “five have fallen, one is.”
  

  Revelation Climax p. 251 par. 2
  

  Here's my question: Regarding the seven kings, would they be describing kings as seen from John's point of view in his time? Or, would they be describing kings as seen from the point of view in the day of the Lord? At the beginning of the book, at Revelation 1:10, John says that by the spirit, he came to be in the day of the Lord. Does this change the view of who these seven kings are?
  

  
  
  
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  OrphanCrow

  I have long thought, ever since I was a child, that the seven mountains might not mean what WTBTS says it means, but that it may mean seven continents or seven seas instead.

  And therein lies the beauty of myth.

  Myth is a template that can be experienced at any time and place in history. Myth weaves itself into the fabric of human existence and functions as the thread that holds time together.

  The seven mountains, seven kings...whatever metaphorical device that the myth has been placed within...can mean whatever you choose it to mean. The value of myth is finding your place within it. 

  Here is an example - at one time, Russia was guarded on her borders by seven Cossack clans. These clans were called "the seven pearls of Russia". Why can not the seven mountains be interpreted as the seven Cossack clans in that point in history?

  Of course the meaning/view of myth changes throughout time - pick an interpretation that fits your life and go with it...myth is meant to be flexible.

  
  

  
  
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  cappytan

  I'm at the point right now that I don't know what to believe anymore.

  To my born-in JW brain, Revelation - It's Grand Climax at Hand made a lot of sense.

  Now that I question certain doctrines that have been so ingrained into my psyche (607, 1914), I don't know if I believe the "party line" on the Revelation interpretation.

  I don't even know if I believe I'm living in the last days.

  It's a very surreal and weird experience.
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  Jonathan Drake

  The land of seven mountains was a reference everyone used back then to identify Rome, "the land of seven hills"

  
  

   so the person reading this would have thought of the region known as Rome. 

  
  

  John saw 7 kings, five who were passed, one who is (Rome) and another who had not arrived.

  
  

  before the rise of the "free world" (usa and Britain are the recognized leaders of this) there was no other real world power between Rome and now. Only an image of it with many monarchies and leaderships vying for power. In the end one succeeded, but in the middle nobody led.
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  _Morpheus

  Welcome, cappytan, to the real world.
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  DesirousOfChange

  MORPHEUS: Welcome, cappytan, to the real world.

  Yep, it's one hell of a ride!

  Doc
  
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  myelaine

  Interesting biblical exposition of babylon et al...fast forward to 12:00 minute mark. 32:00 minute mark starts to cover rev 17:9

  http://youtu.be/BD_N9t2j9jg
  

  
  
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  Londo111

  Seven heads.

  Five have fallen:
  

  (1) Julius Caesar

  (2) Caesar Augustus

  (3) Caesar Tiberius

  (4) Caesar Caligula

  (5) Caesar Claudia

   

  One is:

  (6) Caesar Nero = 666

   

  One is yet to arrive, but remains only a short while: 

  (7) Caesar Galba

  Babylon the Great = ancient Jerusalem. The key to understanding Revelation!
  
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  Jonathan Drake

  @Londo

  
  

  except that Nero died in 68, and revelation is largely agreed to have been written after 70. So that puts a rather large hole in your theory. 
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  Londo111

  Not a theory that I came up with, but a possibility that I became convinced of a number of years ago. It is called Preterism. 

  In regard when the point above, either of these possiblities seem likely:
  

  (1) Revelation was written before 70. 

  (2) Revelation was written as apocalyptic style literature as commentary on events that had already transpired. The inclusion of this book in the canon was much disputed.