Posts by OrphanCrow

49

Elders in Spain Steal Millions from Congregation

by cappytan in

these men are appointed by holy spirit,.

here is the source: http://www.economiadigital.es/es/notices/2015/01/la-fiscalia-imputa-una-estafa-de-mas-de-170-millones-de-euros-a-una-congregacion-de-testigos-de-jeho-65161.php.

basically, if you don't know spanish, it boils down to this: (my personal editorial of what i've read).

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

Onthewayout - The purple triangles were worn by all prisoners who were in the camps for religious reasons. All religious prisoners - including 7th Day Adventists, Baptists, Catholics, Bible Students, Jehovah's witness....if a person was in the camps for religious reasons they were assigned a purple triangle. The JWs were the majority within that group.

.

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Hi Terry

Numbers and authority go hand in hand. Numbers are used to legitimize ideas and phenomena. It is this notion that "if you can measure it, it is real and has value". Also, the WT organization has this intense need to legitimize itself for legal and tax reasons.

When I was a kid, I remember the absolute unquestioning acceptance of the Society's number crunching. There was the attitude that the numbers were infallible. It was implicit in the doctrine and ideology - because the WTS taught the Truth of Jehovah, then it would be blasphemous beyond comprehension to question something as material as numbers. Numbers were as true as God was true. More true, in fact. If you questioned the numbers, that was the unforgivable sin - the numbers were like the Holy Spirit - Truth was unquestionable truth, and the numbers were part of the whole package.

There was this strange idea that the numbers were real material evidence collected in the here and now and the numbers could not, and would never be, inaccurate. The numbers were big letter TRUTH. Jehovah God was invisible but numbers were real - both infallible.

It is a strange loop of belief, where the numbers prove themselves, which goes something like this "...the numbers are true because they are numbers. And the Society is infallible in the collection of numbers. The Society speaks for God and numbers don't lie."

The problem that happens when searching for data on the Society is that they were almost the only ones collecting their own data - they own their numbers. And there is this strange qualifying or confirming of numbers that happens in the academic world - I have read researchers' justifications for using the data released by the WTS that goes something like this:

"We can trust the WTS' numbers because those academics who write about the WTS and who used to be members of the JW religion use those numbers, therefore the numbers must be true." In other words, the 'apostate' community using the numbers released by the WTS gives those numbers authority in larger circles.

i have a problem with that - when legitimate researchers who have come from the WTS community don't step outside of their bubble to question the data. There is this strange phenomena where the doctrine is questioned, the structure is questioned, but the last bastion of truth is held....the wall is never scaled...the numbers hold.

I am not sure why this occurs - it is as though the numbers are the only real truthful thing left: "... the numbers must be true, even if the WTS has lied about everything else, certainly they wouldn't/didn't lie about the numbers???"

But...think about it...the WTS is not truthful about doctrine. They have a history of lying. Why trust their numbers?

Is it a neurosis? It's certainly a mania.

Corporate power structures are neurotic unto themselves - they are madness personified. Insanity is implicit within the structure.

Crow

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Are Watchtower statistics really trustworthy?

No. Absolutely not.

I have explored the differing reports of JW membership leading up to and following WW2 and I think that the internal division within the Bible Student organization during the 20s and 30s in Germany had much to do with the discrepancy in numbers that you will find from differing sources.

There was a major split in the WTS in Germany in 1925 - Rutherford made a trip to that country and gave the boot to Conrad Binkele, who was in charge of the German WTS, resulting in many of the Bible Students following Binkle, rather than Rutherford. In Germany, even after the name change in 1931 to Jehovah's witnesses, the name of 'Bible Student' was used to encompass all of the Bible Students - both those who stayed loyal to Joe's Army and those who followed the 'original' Bible Student group, led by Conrad Binkele who founded the Free Bible Students in Germany in 1928.

I believe that many of the discrepancies in membership numbers in Germany, both in and out of the concentration camps, has much to do with that split not being recognized by outsiders to the WTS, and that the WTS has exploited that misunderstanding. By including all of the Bible Students in the 'JW' numbers, the Watchtower Society has been able to inflate their numbers and massage them whenever appropriate.

The separation of 'Bible Student' from 'Jehovah's witness' was based upon a doctrinal shift - those who stayed with the Bible Students held onto the Zionist doctrine started by Russell, and those who followed Joe adopted the replacement theology. In effect, there were two distinct groups of Bible Students - one doctrine (Zionist theology) put those who followed it in direct opposition to Nazi ideology. And the other doctrine - Joe's replacement Theology - was more compatible to the Nazi position.

It took Rutherford until 1932(?) to make that about face in doctrine, just in time to make the plea he did to Hitler in 1933.

The WW2 concentration camps, in effect, became an ideal place for the 'sifting' within the German WTS organization to take place, and that could be the explanation for why there are differing accounts of how the JWs were treated in the camps - those who followed the 'old' Zionist theology (Bible Students) were treated far more harshly than those who adopted the new replacement theology (JWs).

The Watchtower Society has embraced all the WW2 purple triangles as their own - when in reality, many of those purple triangles were not part of the Watchtower Society at the time.

17

Rev 17:9 - Thoughts?

by leaving_quietly in

rev 17:9 describes something about the "woman", the harlot, babylon the great:.

here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: the seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.

and there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.. i was dreaming about this verse last night, so i thought i'd look it up.

OrphanCrow

I have long thought, ever since I was a child, that the seven mountains might not mean what WTBTS says it means, but that it may mean seven continents or seven seas instead.

And therein lies the beauty of myth.

Myth is a template that can be experienced at any time and place in history. Myth weaves itself into the fabric of human existence and functions as the thread that holds time together.

The seven mountains, seven kings...whatever metaphorical device that the myth has been placed within...can mean whatever you choose it to mean. The value of myth is finding your place within it.

Here is an example - at one time, Russia was guarded on her borders by seven Cossack clans. These clans were called "the seven pearls of Russia". Why can not the seven mountains be interpreted as the seven Cossack clans in that point in history?

Of course the meaning/view of myth changes throughout time - pick an interpretation that fits your life and go with it...myth is meant to be flexible.

71

TO THE STUPID ATHEISTS:

by atheist_R_stupid in

being that this is not "ex jws" and in fact, more driven by atheists talking a bunch of crap, im not even going to address you people like you know anything about jws because you dont.

nor am i going to assume you know the bible because none of you do.. and yes, im speaking down at you all because you men have actually went out your way to make a site to speak down at an entire group of people.

yet i bet you cant even handle a single uswer talking down at you, like you talk down about jws can you?.

OrphanCrow

Why is this thread still alive?

Maybe it is still alive because it is sort of fun to hang out around the water cooler once in a while and take a break from work.

:)

9

Where did Bible writers get their ideas from?

by fulltimestudent in

here's an extract from a zoroastrian document.. ...and they will make a new world, .

freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption, eternally living, eternally increasing, and possessing power at will, when the dead will rise again, when life and immortality will come,.... and when the world will renew itself at its wish .

(sacred avesta, lines from the zamyad yasht 19).

OrphanCrow

Cofty: I think I am right in saying that the dualistic idea of a devil was adopted from Zoroastrianism during the exile.

That's the logical conclusion. As a concept it does not seem evident in writings that have a pre-exilic background, but afterwards, as for example, in the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls, it is. An example occurs in Vermes' translation of the DDS, ( 1QS 3:17-25) where the author speaks of having to choose between being led by either the Angel of Darkness or the Angel of Truth.

The Christian concept of heaven and hell has also been attributed to influences of Zorastianism by some Biblical scholars.

In Zoroastian thought, the bridge between heaven (paradise) and hell was seen as the fine edge of a sword. Difficult to walk upon and hard to balance.

22

Informative and interesting website recommendations please.

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i've got into a bit of a rut visiting the same half dozen or so sites most of the time.

i'd love to hear your suggestions for good sites featuring popular science (esp' astronomy and evolutionary biology), natural history, poetry and english literature.

and anything fun and surprising you might like to spring on me would be welcome too!

OrphanCrow

When I first saw the ISS I couldn't believe how bright it is and how fast it moves.

Yeah...my most memorable sighting lasted six minutes on a cold, clear winter night in Northern Canada. I could actually see the shape of it as it passed - it wasn't just a light in the sky. I tried to use binoculars but was unsuccessful - that sighting happened when repairs were being done to the outside of the ISS and I wanted to see the guys hanging out there. But, I didn't see anybody - way too hard to do with binoculars.

22

Informative and interesting website recommendations please.

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i've got into a bit of a rut visiting the same half dozen or so sites most of the time.

i'd love to hear your suggestions for good sites featuring popular science (esp' astronomy and evolutionary biology), natural history, poetry and english literature.

and anything fun and surprising you might like to spring on me would be welcome too!

OrphanCrow

I love watching the space station move across the sky. Here's when and where to spot it.

Xanthippie:

Me too! I signed up at the NASA site several years ago and I receive email notifications of when the ISS is passing overhead.

I managed to get some good sightings of the ISS when I wasn't living in the midst of city lights - it was quite thrilling to watch it pass overhead - I would stand outside and wave at it!

I had this program installed on my other computer and I loved it:

http://www.stellarium.org/

Stellarium is a free open source planetarium for your computer. It shows a realistic sky in 3D, just like what you see with the naked eye, binoculars or a telescope.

15

Doctrine, Disfellowshipping and the IRS

by OrphanCrow in

i watched an episode of "lie to me" on netflix that piqued my curiosity.. .

in the episode truth or consequences, a cult leader is investigated by the irs to determine if his cult has tax exemption or not.. one of the criteria that has to be met in order to be a legitimate 'church' or 'religion' in the eyes of the irs is that the members have to display "genuine belief'.. here is the portion of the script that speaks of this:.

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=lie-to-me&episode=s02e02.

OrphanCrow

I just saw this. Insightful, clever, ingenious, and persuasive!
Are you a physician, btw?

Thank you, Terry.

No, I am not a physician. I am a researcher/artist with a background that is mostly in the Fine Arts field. My research in Fine Arts is propelled by an interest in the structures that define power relationships so it includes a study of world history and politics.

[my 'letters' are: BA(Psychology), BFA(Photography) MFA(Intermedia)]