Posts by OrphanCrow

38

ARE WATCHTOWER SOCIETY STATISTICS REALLY TRUSTWORTHY?

by TerryWalstrom in

of these, over 2,000 were admitted to concentration camps.

1,000 died in prison and concentration camps.

another 1,000 of jehovah's witnesses died in prisons and concentration camps.".

OrphanCrow

Are Watchtower statistics really trustworthy?

No. Absolutely not.

I have explored the differing reports of JW membership leading up to and following WW2 and I think that the internal division within the Bible Student organization during the 20s and 30s in Germany had much to do with the discrepancy in numbers that you will find from differing sources.

There was a major split in the WTS in Germany in 1925 - Rutherford made a trip to that country and gave the boot to Conrad Binkele, who was in charge of the German WTS, resulting in many of the Bible Students following Binkle, rather than Rutherford. In Germany, even after the name change in 1931 to Jehovah's witnesses, the name of 'Bible Student' was used to encompass all of the Bible Students - both those who stayed loyal to Joe's Army and those who followed the 'original' Bible Student group, led by Conrad Binkele who founded the Free Bible Students in Germany in 1928.

I believe that many of the discrepancies in membership numbers in Germany, both in and out of the concentration camps, has much to do with that split not being recognized by outsiders to the WTS, and that the WTS has exploited that misunderstanding. By including all of the Bible Students in the 'JW' numbers, the Watchtower Society has been able to inflate their numbers and massage them whenever appropriate.

The separation of 'Bible Student' from 'Jehovah's witness' was based upon a doctrinal shift - those who stayed with the Bible Students held onto the Zionist doctrine started by Russell, and those who followed Joe adopted the replacement theology. In effect, there were two distinct groups of Bible Students - one doctrine (Zionist theology) put those who followed it in direct opposition to Nazi ideology. And the other doctrine - Joe's replacement Theology - was more compatible to the Nazi position.

It took Rutherford until 1932(?) to make that about face in doctrine, just in time to make the plea he did to Hitler in 1933.

The WW2 concentration camps, in effect, became an ideal place for the 'sifting' within the German WTS organization to take place, and that could be the explanation for why there are differing accounts of how the JWs were treated in the camps - those who followed the 'old' Zionist theology (Bible Students) were treated far more harshly than those who adopted the new replacement theology (JWs).

The Watchtower Society has embraced all the WW2 purple triangles as their own - when in reality, many of those purple triangles were not part of the Watchtower Society at the time.

17

Rev 17:9 - Thoughts?

by leaving_quietly in

rev 17:9 describes something about the "woman", the harlot, babylon the great:.

here is where the intelligence that has wisdom comes in: the seven heads mean seven mountains, where the woman sits on top.

and there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.. i was dreaming about this verse last night, so i thought i'd look it up.

OrphanCrow

I have long thought, ever since I was a child, that the seven mountains might not mean what WTBTS says it means, but that it may mean seven continents or seven seas instead.

And therein lies the beauty of myth.

Myth is a template that can be experienced at any time and place in history. Myth weaves itself into the fabric of human existence and functions as the thread that holds time together.

The seven mountains, seven kings...whatever metaphorical device that the myth has been placed within...can mean whatever you choose it to mean. The value of myth is finding your place within it.

Here is an example - at one time, Russia was guarded on her borders by seven Cossack clans. These clans were called "the seven pearls of Russia". Why can not the seven mountains be interpreted as the seven Cossack clans in that point in history?

Of course the meaning/view of myth changes throughout time - pick an interpretation that fits your life and go with it...myth is meant to be flexible.

71

TO THE STUPID ATHEISTS:

by atheist_R_stupid in

being that this is not "ex jws" and in fact, more driven by atheists talking a bunch of crap, im not even going to address you people like you know anything about jws because you dont.

nor am i going to assume you know the bible because none of you do.. and yes, im speaking down at you all because you men have actually went out your way to make a site to speak down at an entire group of people.

yet i bet you cant even handle a single uswer talking down at you, like you talk down about jws can you?.

OrphanCrow

Why is this thread still alive?

Maybe it is still alive because it is sort of fun to hang out around the water cooler once in a while and take a break from work.

:)

9

Where did Bible writers get their ideas from?

by fulltimestudent in

here's an extract from a zoroastrian document.. ...and they will make a new world, .

freed from old age and death, from decomposition and corruption, eternally living, eternally increasing, and possessing power at will, when the dead will rise again, when life and immortality will come,.... and when the world will renew itself at its wish .

(sacred avesta, lines from the zamyad yasht 19).

OrphanCrow

Cofty: I think I am right in saying that the dualistic idea of a devil was adopted from Zoroastrianism during the exile.

That's the logical conclusion. As a concept it does not seem evident in writings that have a pre-exilic background, but afterwards, as for example, in the Qumran (Dead Sea) scrolls, it is. An example occurs in Vermes' translation of the DDS, ( 1QS 3:17-25) where the author speaks of having to choose between being led by either the Angel of Darkness or the Angel of Truth.

The Christian concept of heaven and hell has also been attributed to influences of Zorastianism by some Biblical scholars.

In Zoroastian thought, the bridge between heaven (paradise) and hell was seen as the fine edge of a sword. Difficult to walk upon and hard to balance.

22

Informative and interesting website recommendations please.

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i've got into a bit of a rut visiting the same half dozen or so sites most of the time.

i'd love to hear your suggestions for good sites featuring popular science (esp' astronomy and evolutionary biology), natural history, poetry and english literature.

and anything fun and surprising you might like to spring on me would be welcome too!

OrphanCrow

When I first saw the ISS I couldn't believe how bright it is and how fast it moves.

Yeah...my most memorable sighting lasted six minutes on a cold, clear winter night in Northern Canada. I could actually see the shape of it as it passed - it wasn't just a light in the sky. I tried to use binoculars but was unsuccessful - that sighting happened when repairs were being done to the outside of the ISS and I wanted to see the guys hanging out there. But, I didn't see anybody - way too hard to do with binoculars.

22

Informative and interesting website recommendations please.

by nicolaou in

jw
friends

i've got into a bit of a rut visiting the same half dozen or so sites most of the time.

i'd love to hear your suggestions for good sites featuring popular science (esp' astronomy and evolutionary biology), natural history, poetry and english literature.

and anything fun and surprising you might like to spring on me would be welcome too!

OrphanCrow

I love watching the space station move across the sky. Here's when and where to spot it.

Xanthippie:

Me too! I signed up at the NASA site several years ago and I receive email notifications of when the ISS is passing overhead.

I managed to get some good sightings of the ISS when I wasn't living in the midst of city lights - it was quite thrilling to watch it pass overhead - I would stand outside and wave at it!

I had this program installed on my other computer and I loved it:

http://www.stellarium.org/

Stellarium is a free open source planetarium for your computer. It shows a realistic sky in 3D, just like what you see with the naked eye, binoculars or a telescope.

15

Doctrine, Disfellowshipping and the IRS

by OrphanCrow in

i watched an episode of "lie to me" on netflix that piqued my curiosity.. .

in the episode truth or consequences, a cult leader is investigated by the irs to determine if his cult has tax exemption or not.. one of the criteria that has to be met in order to be a legitimate 'church' or 'religion' in the eyes of the irs is that the members have to display "genuine belief'.. here is the portion of the script that speaks of this:.

http://www.springfieldspringfield.co.uk/view_episode_scripts.php?tv-show=lie-to-me&episode=s02e02.

OrphanCrow

I just saw this. Insightful, clever, ingenious, and persuasive!
Are you a physician, btw?

Thank you, Terry.

No, I am not a physician. I am a researcher/artist with a background that is mostly in the Fine Arts field. My research in Fine Arts is propelled by an interest in the structures that define power relationships so it includes a study of world history and politics.

[my 'letters' are: BA(Psychology), BFA(Photography) MFA(Intermedia)]

24

Legal scholars: JW court cases before Supreme Court were "accidental wins."

by TerryWalstrom in

the outcomes of jehovah's witness court cases, to most first amendment scholars, the witness successes in court, especially the supreme court, were accidental.

legal scholars have uniformly dismissed the witnesses' methods for bringing about first amendment cases, referring to their legal successes as mere unintended consequences of fanatical preaching.

for example, legal scholar bernard schwartz noted that jehovah's witnesses, "who became involved in trouble with the law were only seeking to propagate their unpopular creed.

OrphanCrow

No fault, no harm and no foul, Terry.

No problem.

24

Legal scholars: JW court cases before Supreme Court were "accidental wins."

by TerryWalstrom in

the outcomes of jehovah's witness court cases, to most first amendment scholars, the witness successes in court, especially the supreme court, were accidental.

legal scholars have uniformly dismissed the witnesses' methods for bringing about first amendment cases, referring to their legal successes as mere unintended consequences of fanatical preaching.

for example, legal scholar bernard schwartz noted that jehovah's witnesses, "who became involved in trouble with the law were only seeking to propagate their unpopular creed.

OrphanCrow

Ask yourself how you were able to determine the author was in agreement with the WT and you'll have to answer, "I read it for myself in the link provided by Terry."

Actually, Terry, I didn't read the paper in the link you provided. I read that paper some time ago and the author does take the position that the legal strategy dealing with First Amendment rights was a planned endeavor by the Watchtower Society's legal team.

I did not get the impression that the author was "in agreement with the WT." I got the impression that the paper was an attempt to re-contextualize pre-existing opinions within the legal community about these legal cases being purely 'accidental'.

The quote that you presented was simply the author presenting differing/existing opinions to her thesis. It was a quote of quotes.

I am sorry if I didn't 'get' the title of your thread - when I read the thread title, it appeared like the thread is about legal scholars who say that the WTS legal strategies were accidental. Henderson's paper you quote from does not support this position.

6

Have there been any existing cultural group made up of rationalists with neither a religion or a mythology?

by James Mixon in

disbelief is the default position, no one is born having a belief.

beliefs are.

acquired through culture and education, we all know that.

OrphanCrow

North America. Some North American indian tribes believed in a god, but did
not actively worship it, their philosophy, "Our grandfathers and our great-
grandfathers were won't to contemplate the earth alone, solicitous only
to see whether the plain afford grass and water for their horses. They
never troubled themselves about what went on in the heavens, and who
was the creator and governor of the stars.

James, do you have a source for that statement? That statement flies in the face of everything I know about Native American culture and the history of that culture.

About your opening question : Communism.

Keep in mind that political groups are culturally defined. Political groups and religious groups and social groups are cultural entities.

*edit to add: the question of mythology is a complex one - even 'rational' groups have the need to develop mythology to substantiate and maintain their philosophies. As Georges Bataille said: The greatest contemporary myth is that there is no myth.