Posts by OrphanCrow

35

Be Honest About This Doctrinal Matter

by lambsbottom in

wife says she always thought the wt said that anyone alive at armageddon that did not get a chance to hear kingdom message may survive?

true?

references?.

OrphanCrow

"the message was supposed to be preached in all lands, then the end would come."

And that is why they have invested so much money and time in claiming that their message is available in over 300 languages.

Never mind that many of those languages that they brag about translating their literature into aren't even used anymore. Never mind that the Watchtowers printed in some of those languages can't even be read by the ethnic groups that they are targeting.

"... if it is Jehovah’s will to have this message personally carried to the millions on earth who seemingly have not yet heard it, that will be accomplished. If he chooses, he could see to it that this message is spread in ways that we cannot yet imagine."

That must be why they have embraced the internet. Now they can claim that their message is reaching "all the lands". I guess they don't have to personally deliver the message after all.

43

Account of Jehovah's Witness Women Prisoners in Auschwitz (very creepy)

by objectivetruth in

a book titled written by a long ti me ss member .rudolf franz ferdinand hoess.

here is a quote from this book : .

"a pleasant contrast to this type were the female jehovah's witnesses, called "bible bees" or "bible worms.

OrphanCrow

"Welcome to the board, OrphanCrow ! Very interesting post. I hadn't considered that the Society was claiming the Bible Students as their own during WWII. Were there Students in the camps alongside JWs?"

Thank you, Agnopophos.

I would think it would be likely that the JWs and Bible Students were lumped together in the camps. Even though Rutherford and Knorr knew of the divisions within the Society, it is highly unlikely that the Nazis knew of the internal strife happening with the Society. The terms Bible Student and Jehovhah's witnesses were interchangable - they both wore the purple triangle. In fact, all religious prisoners and all pacifists wore the purple triangle, including Dawn Bible Students, Free Bible Students, Seventh Day Adventists and Baptists. The JWs claim to be the largest group out of the purple triangles.

The internal problems with the Society are evident when one examines the historical record and compares it to the Society's revised history. There were problems galore within the structure of the German Watchtower at the time the war was beginning - leftovers from Rutherford's about face and revival of his failing Society that was being led up to in the late 20s and received some resolution with his makeover of the religion in the early 30s.

There is a good thread on this forum somewhere that exposes the colloboration that occured between Erich Frost, a Society hero, and the Gestapo. Frost betrayed several of the Bible Students and later in the war, sat it out on a little island somewhere. He emerged from the war as a hero but the Society has kept hidden his collaborative efforts that resulted in the imprisonment of many Bible Students during the war. His is not the only account that speaks of betrayal by the Rutherford loyalists.

I had said in my earlier post that the religion of the Society's was clearly fractured, however, those fractures at the rank and file level would probably still be in the murky stage and would explain the often reported squabbles that broke out in some of the camps with the Bible Students/JWs. There are many reports of the disunity that erupted within the purple triangle group - right alongside reports of how the JWs were cohesive. So cohesive, in fact, that it is the reason some researchers have speculated as to why the JWs emerged from the camps with an over 80% survival rate.

Other researchers, though, have questioned the collaborative behavior of the JWs who worked for the SS and survived the war in positions of privledge. Of course, the Society spins it that the JWs were honest and loyal to Jehovah and that is the reason they had these positions. I guess they are right on that point to a degree - many were loyal. To the SS. In fact, their loyalty impressed Himmler so much that his plans for a future Germany included using groups of JWs as a vanguard for the Third Reich in their expanded territories. He planned on using the religion as a model for future Germany.

Something that annoys me to no end is the Society's insistence that they are politically neutral when the history books show us something entirely different. They use the camoflague of not wearing a uniform or engaging in military activities when, in reality, they are hugely political. Their literature is ALL about politics. The post Blondie made reveals that the about face that Rutherford did in the late 20s and early 30s was nothing less than a huge political move. Rutherford, in 1926, came out publicly in support of a Zionist State in Palestine, but, in the years to follow, he appropriated the designation of State of Israel - calling his religion the new Spiritual Israel - and then relocated Palestine to his mansion in California. And he did his doctrinal/political change at a time that he started rubbing shoulders with not only Wm. Heath Sr, but also with Heath's son-in-law who just happened to go on to be the first president of the World Bank. And, something that may be critical to understanding Rutherford's doctrinal shift is that Mein Kampf was published in 1925 and was widely distributed to world leaders and anyone of importance in world politics or who had interest in world politics. The chances that Rutherford had read Hitlers book is pretty high - if he didn't, then he certainly was on the same vibratory wavelength as the little short man with a mustache.

43

Account of Jehovah's Witness Women Prisoners in Auschwitz (very creepy)

by objectivetruth in

a book titled written by a long ti me ss member .rudolf franz ferdinand hoess.

here is a quote from this book : .

"a pleasant contrast to this type were the female jehovah's witnesses, called "bible bees" or "bible worms.

OrphanCrow

I think the quote that the op made from Hess' book concerning the Jehovah's Witness women needs context. There is much about the happenings within the Society, their shifts in doctrine and power struggles that need to be understood to be able to better understand the position that the women took.

Firstly, one of the things that is badly misrepresented by the Society is that they were 'one religion' during WW2 when they were not. There were two distinct divisions within Germany of their religion of the time. When you read of accounts of 'the Jehovah's witnesses' and accounts of Bible Students, we have learned to lump them both together and use the terms interchangedly, quite simply because the Watchtower Society does - they claim 'ownership' of the Bible Student statistics during the Second World War when they are not entitled to them. The Bible Students weren't part of the Watchtower Society at the outbreak of WW2. And, the differing accounts that have been recorded historically reflect the internal politics of the Watchtower Society and how they were struggling for power within a political maelstorm. WW2 actually served to 'divide the flock' for them - right inside of Nazi Germany.

To back up a bit, the tumultous years following Charles Russell's death in 1916 saw many things happen within the power base of the Society, and with those changes came doctrinal changes that aligned them with political ideology as well. The Society was notorious for sticking their nose into world politics.

This began with Russell's very public stand in support of a Zionist State of Israel - he even published a Yiddish newsletter at one time in addition to many travels abroad to promote his notion of a Zionist State. Russell's involvement in the promotion of Zionist Israel had much support within the Society after his death and the shift in the doctrine concerning that position was consistent with who stayed with the Society and who stayed with the Bible Students. This is critical to understand when contemplating the history of the Watchtower involvement in WW2.

Those who backed Rutherford and his ruthless struggle for the power to control the coffers of the Watchtower Society were those who also held his political views - the same views as the people who financed Rutherford's Beth Sarim project in California.

Those who didn't - the ones who still held to the views of Russell and who he was connected to politcally, like Hudgings, for example, were the Bible Students.

The Watchtower religion within Germany (and elsewhere) was fractured - those who followed Rutherford's new theology/politics and those who didn't. Two very distinct groups.

To back up again for a bit - back to WW1, there is something that the Society has swept uder the rug. And that is the matter of what happened in Germany with the Bible Students.

The Bible Students in Germany, during WW1, joined the ranks of the German Army. They fought, and died, as soldiers on the front lines for Germany. Charles Russell, in the Watchtower magazine, gave his support for those Bible Students and even encouraged the women Bible Students to keep the men on the front line well fed with encouraging letters and, of course, Watchtower material.

Now. Hitler. He also served at the front for Germany in WW1. Hitler was first and foremost and always a soldier. It was one of his reasons for his contempt of the intellectual class - he saw them as pansies and parasites of society because they didn't fight during the war. Hitler was patriotic to the extreme and was contemptuous of anyone who he saw as impeding Germany or contributing to Germany's defeat in WW1. And, one thing that really annoyed him was the evangelists that had served at the front lines in that first war. He saw the evangelist material as demoralizing the troops and that those men had harmed Germany's position rather than helped. And that is why he had such extreme hatred for the Bible Students, along with the Seventh Day Adventists and Baptists.

But, those Bible Students who still supported Hudgings and that faction were no longer Rutherford's political allies and that was what Rutherford and Knorr tried so hard to correct.

And you do see a difference during WW2 in how the 'JWs' were treated - some accounts are horrific and yet, on the other hand, many accounts reveal the 'better' treatment of JW concientious objectors. Wewelsburg Castle priviledges, along with positions of trust within Himmler's financial arm of the SS, and other placements of service to the SS, reveal another side to what really happened during WW2 concerning the Jehovah's Witnesses.

The Watchtower Society, in their attempts at revisionist history, have shamelessly exploited their falsehoods concerning what was really happening in Germany.

43

Account of Jehovah's Witness Women Prisoners in Auschwitz (very creepy)

by objectivetruth in

a book titled written by a long ti me ss member .rudolf franz ferdinand hoess.

here is a quote from this book : .

"a pleasant contrast to this type were the female jehovah's witnesses, called "bible bees" or "bible worms.

OrphanCrow

"...it was pure racial hatred"

Actually, it wasn't pure racial hatred. The hatred was politically motivated.

The hatred was directed towards the Bolsheviks - a political organization that was founded and controlled by the Jews.

Hitler had an intense hatred towards the communist organization that had taken control of Russia after the Russian Revolution of 1917. He feared that the political situation in Germany at the time was threatened by the same Bolsheviks that had established themelves across Germany's borders. Jews were synoymous with Bolsheviks.

He opposed communism - his default position was fascism.

43

Account of Jehovah's Witness Women Prisoners in Auschwitz (very creepy)

by objectivetruth in

a book titled written by a long ti me ss member .rudolf franz ferdinand hoess.

here is a quote from this book : .

"a pleasant contrast to this type were the female jehovah's witnesses, called "bible bees" or "bible worms.

OrphanCrow

"Most ordinary JWs were unaware of the maschinations in brooklyn, the the 'new light' du jour doctrines even."

Well. Lots (probably all) were very aware of the Society's stance of anti-semitism.

The large convention that drew many of the JWs in Germany happened in 1933 well before any were imprisoned for not joining the army. It was at that convention that their replacement theology was solidified within their membership by both Rutherford and Knorr. It is obvious that all the JWs knew about it - they mounted a large tract campaign to make the whole of Germany aware of it. The JW women talked about in Hess' book had to have been blind, dumb and deaf not to know.

i find it more believable that the women knew of the stance that was widely publicised in Germany at the time - both by the Watchtower and by outside sources. Their stance was that they did not oppose Nazi Germany and that they hated the Jews too.

http://yadlachim.org/?CategoryID=203&ArticleID=577

*the intro from the above link:

"One of the most aggressive missionary groups operating today in the State of Israel is the sect which calls itself 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'.
Lately, this sect started an aggressive publicity campaign in order to build for itself a positive image in the eyes of the public. They hope to succeed based on the fact that most people in Israel are unaware of the true nature of this sect and of its sordid history. They’re pouring a lot of money into this publicity campaign from their vast resources (their income in USA alone is surpassing $1.25 billion dollars).
As a part of this propaganda they sent an expensively produced book and a videocassette to every member of the Knesset. There they describe in great detail the suffering that members of the sect underwent during the Nazi regime. Our brochure is the first modest step in exposing the true face of this fanatical sect, which bases all of its propaganda on historical revisionism and outright lies."

35

Be Honest About This Doctrinal Matter

by lambsbottom in

wife says she always thought the wt said that anyone alive at armageddon that did not get a chance to hear kingdom message may survive?

true?

references?.

OrphanCrow

The point is moot.

And yes, probably mute too.

43

Account of Jehovah's Witness Women Prisoners in Auschwitz (very creepy)

by objectivetruth in

a book titled written by a long ti me ss member .rudolf franz ferdinand hoess.

here is a quote from this book : .

"a pleasant contrast to this type were the female jehovah's witnesses, called "bible bees" or "bible worms.

OrphanCrow

"Denouncing their Jewish fellow inmates may have been a survival reaction/front, to help to extend their own comfort zone."

Maybe.

But it is more likely that they were following the doctrine of the JWs of the time - replacement theology.

They were expressing what it was that they actually believed - that their particular group of people were the ones in 'god's' favor and the Jews had been bad and so fell out of favor. They 'replaced' the Jews in 'god's' eyes.

5

The Finished Mystery on Amazon Kindle for 99 cents

by airborne in

jw
friends

i learned yesterday that the finished mystery (studies in the scriptures vii) by charles taze russell and published posthumously in 1918 is now available on amazon kindle for 99 cents.

this is the quality spiritual food that the governing body claims is the basis for jesus appointing it as the faithful and discreet slave in 1919 according to peter gregerson in his talk on youtube.. from what i understand there are some really fantastical claims and ideas in it.

there is no way they are appointed by god if this is the basis for the appointment.

OrphanCrow

So, which edition of The Finished Mystery is it that has been published on kindle?

The original before it was censored for sedition?

Or the one that had the offending 'treason' comments taken out?

Or the one that was 'revised' in 1926?

18

Rick Fenton, please stop lying!

by Watchtower-Free in

makes a good point.

.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x8i192fbuq&list=uuz1w0ll081jjiycjb298pow.

OrphanCrow

Good video.

I didn't realize that Cedars has such nice blue eyes.

However, the pretty blue eyes aside, Cedars makes one error - he tells his friend that 'his rules' (aka Watchtower rules) are that they shouldn't lie.

The Watchtower supports lying - it is called 'theocratic warfare'.

That must be how Rick Fenton sleeps at night - he keeps repeating 'theocratic warfare' over and over until he falls asleep.

5

The Finished Mystery on Amazon Kindle for 99 cents

by airborne in

jw
friends

i learned yesterday that the finished mystery (studies in the scriptures vii) by charles taze russell and published posthumously in 1918 is now available on amazon kindle for 99 cents.

this is the quality spiritual food that the governing body claims is the basis for jesus appointing it as the faithful and discreet slave in 1919 according to peter gregerson in his talk on youtube.. from what i understand there are some really fantastical claims and ideas in it.

there is no way they are appointed by god if this is the basis for the appointment.

OrphanCrow

Lol!

At least we know that current JWs won't be reading that book. It is written in a language that is far above the intellectual level of the Society's current publications.

As far as the significance of 1919 goes...the only thing of importance that happened then was Rutherford took over the Society by nefarious means and booted out everybody he didn't like.

The book does has some crazy ideas in it - http://jwbookstore.bravehost.com/books/mystery.html