Donald Duck and Jehovah (from the book "Jehovah Unmasked")

by JamesThomas 55 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Shakita

  I take it you will not be voting for Jehovah at the next Watchtower Society election.

  Thanks Trevor. It has only been a few years since my eyes have been opened to the way that God is portrayed in the Bible. I hope that Rex will take his blinders off and at least ponder the points that everyone here is bringing out. The many inconsistencies and contradictions are apparent if one just takes the time to look at the Bible objectively. And no, I won't be voting for the WT god. There will be an abstention.

  Mr. Shakita
• 

  Shining One

  Trevor,
  The firefox browser does not have that feature, sorry. I am trying to help them, also. I see exactly what they are driving at and I reject it. My opinion....as I said the analogy is demeaning and simplistic. It ignores too much context which obscures the actual meaning of some of the difficult passages of scripture.
  Rex
• 

  JamesThomas

  difficult passages of scripture

  Fabrications of the mind are often extremely complex. Truth, totally uncluttered. What is it that comes before complexity? What is the most simple that allows the multiformed mosaics of existence to be?

  This is why the wise say: "Be still and know", rather than read confusing and entangled scripture.

  j
• 

  Shining One

  Hi Mr. Shakita,
  There are some things about scripture that are not fully explained. Yes, there are many terrible truths about the wrath of God. No, I am not oblivious to that fact and I do not expect you to accept my understanding of the actions. I do not apologize for God. I offer an apologia' as I see it, from a view that accepts scripture as fundamentally sound and infallible.
  I have already pointed out that we do not see the whole picture in light of eternity. We do not see the events where they are all complete and time is at an end. I have explained the rights of God as creator relayed to us by His word. I stick within that framework in any interpretation and try not to go beyond what the scripture offers.
  Remember this, we have seen God in His essence in the person of Christ Jesus and He proclaimed the 'Law and the Prophets' as true and fulfilled in Himself. He also preached more warnings on hell and damnation than He did on love. Sorry, that is just the simple facts in a survey of New Testament scripture.
  Deuteronomy 2:33-34: "And the Lord our God delivered him over to us; and we defeated him with his sons and all his people. 34So we captured all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, women and children of every city. We left no survivor."
  
  The command by God to kill all inside a city is seen by many to be immoral and a demonstration that the Bible is not true. But, we must examine the issue in light of its context, its biblical context, not in light of present day, non-Christian assumptions. If we want to see if it is moral or not, we must know which morals are in question.
  First of all, the context of this verse is dealing with the wickedness of Amorite king Sihon of Hesbon, a city of the Amorites (Num. 21:25). They were a wicked people (Gen. 15:16; 2 Kings 21:11). When the Israelites wanted to pass through their land during their exodus from Egypt, the Amorites refused them safe passage and attacked the Israelites. However, they were soundly defeated by Israel (Num. 21:21-31). It is in this context that God delivered them over to the Israelites; that is, in the context of the battle.
  Why would the decision of the Amorites be so serious thing to God that He would have all their people wiped out? The answer is simple and yes it is horrible. The wrath of a holy and righteous God is a terrible thing to behold! God tells the Israelites why the people were destroyed. It was because of the wickedness of the Amorite people. God answers that:
  "It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the Lord your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the Lord swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob," (Deut. 9:5).
  God has declared that the Amorite people deserved to die because of their sins. They remained unrepentant (unlike Nineveh) and the righteous wrath of God fell upon them via the Israelites. Since all people are sinners, all deserve to die and will eventually. They are no exceptions. Nevertheless, God is merciful by allowing them to live. In the case of the Amorites, God was gracious to them by letting them live and enjoy life with its generic blessings from God (provision of rain, sun, water, etc.), while He encouraged them to repent of their sins. Prophets were sent to them for over 400 years. They refused to turn from their immorality and were finally wiped out.
  Also, the death of a child might be a very merciful thing because had the child grown up in the sin of the Amorite culture, it would surely have suffered the eternal wrath of God. If the "age of accountability" notion is correct, then God delivered them into His hands and it is highly possible that by this they were spared eternal damnation. Is it ever an easy thing for a person of any kind to die? No, it is a very hard thing and saying it is horrible does not do it justice.
  The final and most important reason for their destruction is that God needed to keep the messianic line pure so that Jesus could be born and thereby redeem His people so that all believers could go to heaven. Without Jesus' sacrifice, all would be damned. If the Amorites were allowed to live, surely they would have influenced the Jewish nation in a harmful way thereby threatening the arrival of the Messiah. Therefore, God in His righteous judgment executed judgment upon them. As you know, the Israelites had a hard enough time as it was living up to their calling.
  I know you don't like the explanation but that is it.
  Rex
• 

  Shining One

  Mr. Shakita,
  Here is another difficult passage:(Numbers 31:17-18) - "Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. 18"But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves."
  The Midianites were descended from Abraham and Keturah (Gen. 25:1). They inhabited the land of Moab and were apparently involved in seducing Israel into going after false gods. Because the Israelites fell into idolatry this way, God told Moses to order the deaths of all had bowed to the false gods in that land.
  "While Israel remained at Shittim, the people began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab. 2For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods. 3So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the Lord was angry against Israel. 4And the Lord said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of the people and execute them in broad daylight before the Lord, so that the fierce anger of the Lord may turn away from Israel." 5So Moses said to the judges of Israel, "Each of you slay his men who have joined themselves to Baal of Peor," (Num. 25:1-5).
  God later instructs the Israelites to deal harshly with the Midianites: "Be hostile to the Midianites and strike them; 18for they have been hostile to you with their tricks, with which they have deceived you in the affair of Peor, and in the affair of Cozbi, the daughter of the leader of Midian, their sister who was slain on the day of the plague because of Peor," (Num. 25:17-18). Later, when Moses meets the returning Israeli army he was angry because he saw the Medianite survivors. "The Midianite women, he said, should have died because they were directly culpable in Israel’s sin at Baal of Peor. All the women except the virgins were then sentenced to death along with all the boys. This insured the extermination of the Midianites and thus prevented them from ever again seducing Israel to sin....The virgins were spared because they obviously had had no role in the Baal of Peor incident nor could they by themselves perpetuate the Midianite peoples."1
  Some may object that the Israelites then married the virgins, the daughters of those whom they had killed and that this would be a horrible thing for the virgins. Perhaps it was a horrible thing for them. But, their lives were spared. Also, in that culture at that time, warfare and plunder was a necessary evil. The reality of taking women as wives was unfortunate but true.
  We must understand that God dealt very harshly with idolatry because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Satan, in his perpetual effort to oppose God, sought to have the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people, to destroy the messianic line and make not only the promises of God null and void, but destroy means by which the Messiah could be born. If this could be accomplished, then none would have any hope of deliverance from sin. Therefore, we see in the Old Testament God being very harsh and strict according to the Law.
  It was a harsh time in a harsh world. That area of the world is still especially harsh and the Bible tells us it will be without peace until the end times are nearly complete.
  Rex
• 

  codeblue

  This is a fascinating thread JT, thanks for starting it and the links as well!

  Codeblue
• 

  funkyderek

  Shining One,

  I think you're missing the point. The issue is not really whether God the Creator has the right to destroy his creation (although I would argue that he doesn't), but whether he's actually capable of doing anything else. Like Donald Duck, Jehovah will usually try first to deal with a situation in a normal rational way, but when things don't go the way he likes he flies into a rage and destroys whatever stands in his way. With Donald, it is usually (always?) his own property that he destroys. He has every right to do so, of course, but that's not the point.

  The point is that it's not a useful way of dealing with a situation. Neither are Jehovah's Old Testament killing sprees. He can kill people, certainly. His power is beyond question. But his behaviour is that of a sulking child, or a hot-tempered duck.

  Also, neither of them wear pants!
• 

  Shining One

  Hi Derek,
  I reiterate this point. There is nothing arbitrary in the actions of God in the O.T. There are laws set before mankind, particularly related to the region where the Messiah is coming out of. There are warnings issued, prophets sent, opportunity to repent and finally judgment. Would you say that the last two thousand years have been sufficient time for the same to be accomplished in the Church Age, as this dispensation is called? There is nothing arbitrary in the N.T. and we will see a final judgment at some point. You can't have it both ways. You can't complain to God because of the existence of evil, then complain again when He does something about it! Do you know what is significant about the judgments dealt to the Amorites and Amalekites? We don't hear about human sacrifice being done by the dispersion. It was effectively dealt with at that point in time.
  Have you not also seen the temporal judgments against human sacrificing cultures since then? We have seen some of the African tribes facing terrible decimation, as did the Mayans in Central America. When a nation's leaders, elected or not, take a nation too far out of the bounds of decency you will eventually see that nation fall to conquest or natural disaster. This is a big concern amongst Bible believing Christians in this country and is the main reason that you see Christians speaking out as never before. The future of the USA and of western civilization hangs in the balance.
  The judgment of God is a terrible thing to behold. It is a fact of history and to use this to try to push the idea that the Bible is suspect will not work. I am not going to judge God's motives nor apologize for his wrath. God is much more than love: He is righteous, holy, wrathful, merciful.....all in one and all complete in perfection. We cannot see the big picture but we can be sure that 'all things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose.' That is a promise to believers as you can probably see. It is not a promise for unbelievers and that's why Christians need to be 'salt and light', not compromising truth to feed people's delusions and make them feel good about being lost. This is not something to be taken as arrogance, it is a responsibility that every child of God will answer for...
  
  Rex
• 

  Narkissos

  You know, Rex, when I first read your posts I thought you were 20 or so. Then I saw your profile indicates 50. I feel sorry for you.
• 

  Shining One

  Dear Narkissos,
  Insults are not at all necessary. I am not going to change my tune to seek your, or anyone else's approval. I am certainly not going to bow to peer pressure. I do not care one bit what you think of me or my views. Arrogance is an easy attitude when you do not talk face to face.
  Rex