MYTHICAL CREATURES IN ANCIENT TIMES

by Mary 26 Replies latest jw friends

  • Mary
    Mary

    Did dragons and the phoenix really exist or were they just mythical creatures? The dragon is of course, mentioned in Revelation and is symbolic, but it's mentioned so often in other old writings, that I'm not sure if they just went extinct or what. I was reading 1 Clements earlier (written around 95 CE) and it specifically mentions the phoenix as living in Arabia (below)

    25:1 Let us consider the marvellous sign which is seen in the regions of the east, that is, in the parts about Arabia.
    25:2 There is a bird, which is named the phoenix.25:3 This, being the only one of its kind, liveth for five hundred years;
    25:4 and when it hath now reached the time of its dissolution that it should die, it maketh for itself a coffin of frankincense and myrrh and the other spices, into the which in the fulness of time it entereth, and so it dieth.
    25:5 But, as the flesh rotteth, a certain worm is engendered, which is nurtured from the moisture of the dead creature and putteth forth wings.
    25:6 Then, when it is grown lusty, it taketh up that coffin where are the bones of its parent, and carrying them journeyeth from the country of Arabia even unto Egypt, to the place called the City of the Sun ;
    25:7 and in the day time in the sight of all, flying to the altar of the Sun, it layeth them thereupon;
    25:8 and this done, it setteth forth to return.
    25:9 So the priests examine the registers of the times, and they find that it hath come when the five hundredth year is completed.

    So do you think this actualy existed or is it just based on mythology? Your thoughts?

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    So do you think this actualy existed or is it just based on mythology? Your thoughts?

    It's certainly possible a bird existed upon which the myth of the phoenix is based. Everything else about it is clearly made up though.

  • daystar
    daystar

    Unless physical evidence is discovered, it is extremely difficult for me to believe.

    Then again, there is something called cryptozoology which looks for evidence of rare, previously unknown, species.

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos
    The dragon is of course, mentioned in Revelation and is symbolic, but it's mentioned so often in other old writings, that I'm not sure if they just went extinct or what.

    Wait until the Scots see that...

  • Legolas
    Legolas

    Phoenix

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    (Redirected from Phoenix (mythology) )

    This article refers to the mythical creature. For the city in Arizona, see Phoenix, Arizona. For other uses of the name Phoenix, see Phoenix (disambiguation).
    The phoenix from the Aberdeen Bestiary.

    In ancient Egyptian mythology and in myths derived from it, the phoenix is a mythical sacred firebird.

    Said to live for 500 or for 1461 years (depending on the source), the phoenix is a male bird with beautiful gold and red plumage. At the end of its life-cycle the phoenix builds itself a nest of cinnamon twigs that it then ignites; both nest and bird burn fiercely and are reduced to ashes, from which a new, young phoenix arises. The new phoenix embalms the ashes of the old phoenix in an egg made of myrrh and deposits it in Heliopolis ("the city of the sun" in Greek), located in Egypt.

    Although descriptions (and life-span) vary, the phoenix became popular in early Christian art and literature as a symbol of the resurrection, of immortality, and of life-after-death. The early Christians were convinced the phoenix was a real living creature.

    It was also famed for being a symbol of the rise and fall of society in Ray Bradbury's Fahrenheit 451. The pattern of an over complacent and abusive society's destruction yielding a fresh new start was compared to the Phoenix's mythological pattern of consumption by flame, then ressurection out of ashes.

    More recently, J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter novels feature a phoenix, named Fawkes. He is Dumbledore's pet (Dumbledore's Patronus is also a phoenix). The life span of this bird is unknown, though it is less than 500 years. In Harry Potter's world, phoenixes can carry enormous weights, and their tears have extraordinary healing powers.

    Originally, the phoenix was identified by the Egyptians as a stork or heron-like bird called a benu, known from the Book of the Dead and other Egyptian texts as one of the sacred symbols of worship at Heliopolis, closely associated with the rising sun and the Egyptian sun-god Ra.

    As Britannica 1911 continues:

    ... whence it is represented as "self-generating" and called "the soul of Ra (the sun)," "the heart of the renewed Sun". All the mystic symbolism of the morning sun, especially in connection with the doctrine of the future life, could thus be transferred to the benu, and the language of the hymns in which the Egyptians praised the luminary of the dawn as he drew near from Arabia, delighting the gods with his fragrance and rising from the sinking flames of the morning glow, was enough to suggest most of the traits materialized in the classical pictures of the phoenix.

    The Greeks adapted the word benu (and also took over its further Egyptian meaning of date palm tree), and identified it with their own word phoinix, meaning the colour purple-red or crimson (cf Phoenicia). They and the Romans subsequently pictured the bird more like a peacock or an eagle. According to the Greeks the phoenix lived in Arabia next to a well. At dawn, it bathed in the water of the well, and the Greek sun-god Apollo stopped his chariot (the sun) in order to listen to its song.

    This myth is famously referred to in Shakespeare's play The Tempest,

    now I will believe
    That there are unicorns; that in Arabia
    There is one tree, the phoenix' throne; one phoenix
    At this hour reigning there.
    -(III.III.27)

    One inspiration that has been suggested for the Egyptian phoenix is a specific bird species of East Africa. This bird nests on salt flats that are too hot for its eggs or chicks to survive; it builds a mound several inches tall and large enough to support its egg, which it lays in that marginally cooler location. The hot air rising around these mounds resembles the turbulence of a flame. [edit]

    See also

  • OldSoul
    OldSoul

    I have been interested in the recent advances in chemistry (recent in terms of ages) that leave open the possibility that glands secreting certain chemicals could even produce fire. I am not clear on how advanced we are in our ability to analyze glandular secretion from fossilized remains, but I think it would be really cool if such creatures as are widely described in the lore of "certain cultures" (Narkissos, ) actually existed.

    Who knows how much there is we have not yet discovered? Maybe Phoenix was a gigantic relative of a butterfly .

    Respectfully,
    OldSoul

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    I blame it all on a faulty huka and some really good hashish...

    The rest is history.

    I still can't figure out how any rational sober person can see the "creatures" in the constellations, and I have a good imagination.

    u/d(of the knights who say...NEEEE class)

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    The Bible writers were similarly under some misconceptions. Some of the earlier translations mention Dragons, Satyrs, and Unicorns. The newer ones wisely translate around these critters:

    ”And Babylon shall become heaps, a dwellingplace for dragons, an astonishment, and an hissing, without an inhabitant.” – Jeremiah 51:37

    “But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.” – Isaiah 13:21

    "And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness." - Isaiah 34: 7

    All in all, there are nine references to unicorns. ten references to dragons, and two references to satyrs in the Bible.

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    About the phoenix in 1 Clement, the description given corresponds closely in detail with the accounts of Pomponius Mela (Chorogr. 3.8) who wrote in AD 40/41, and Pliny the Elder (Nat. Hist. 10.4), who wrote before AD 79 (as he died in the eruption of Mount Vesuvius). A few of the other details are found in later writers dependent on earlier sources. All this suggests that Clement's tale is essentially Roman in origin, which is what would be expected if the epistle was written in Rome. Here is a detail by detail comparison:

    from Arabia (Clement, Pliny)
    a unique specimen (Clement, Pomponius Mela)
    lives 500 years (Clement, Aelian, Nat. animal. 6.58)
    coffin of ... myrrh and other aromas (Clement, Pomponius Mela, Pliny)
    decomposes (Clement, Pliny [< citing Manilius])
    worm emerges (Clement, Pliny)
    grows wings (Clement, Pliny [fieri pullum])
    to Egypt, Heliopolis (Clement, Pomponius Mela, Pliny)
    by day in the sight of all (Clement, Johannes Lydes, De mensibus 4.11 [< citing Apollonius of Tyana])
    altar of the sun (Clement, Pomponius Mela, Pliny)
    priests check records (Clement, Aelian, Nat. animal 6.58)

    RunningMan....I have to disagree with you there about "unicorns". The use of "unicorn" in the KJV is due to the Latin being influenced by the Septuagint rendering, which translates Hebrew r'm "wild ox" as monokerós "one-horned". These terms were indeed used to described mythical equine creatures in classical literature (cf. Ctesias, Indica [< cited in Photius, Myriobiblon 72], Pliny, Nat. Hist. 8.31, Aelian, Nat. animal. 3.41, 4.52, Vita de Apollonius Tyana, 3.2), however there is no evidence that the original Hebrew term referred to the same thing; none of the details mentioned by these other writers occur in the OT use of the term r'm. There are passages like Deuteronomy 33:17 which directly conflict with the LXX rendering: "As the firstborn of his bull (shwrw; LXX tauro), majesty is his / And his horns (qrnyw; LXX kerata) are the horns of the wild ox (r'm; LXX monokerótos)". Rather than being equine, the beast is likened through literary parallelism to an "ox" and rather than being one-horned, the r'm has plural horns (in fact, two horns since the horns are likened to the two tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh in the next sentence). Moreover in other related Semitic languages the term is used to refer to oxen, especially Akkadian rimu "wild ox".

    S.R. Driver in his commentary on Deuteronomy presents evidence that Hebrew r'm and Akkadian rimu referred to the Bos primigenius species of oxen, one of the Pleistocene megafauna known to the Germans as aurochs and which were partially domesticated in Mesopotamia about 5000 BC and which became extinct by 1627. For instances, Bos primigenius teeth have been found in the same valley (Nahr-el-Kalb) where Tiglath-Pileser I (1120-1100 BC) claimed to have hunted rimu. It is also possible that as populations of aurochs dwindled and as their average size decreased over time, memory of larger aurochs took on mythological proportions; the "Bull of Heaven" in the Gilgamesh Epic might be one example of this. The OT references to the r'm stress their strength, size, formidable horns, and wildness, which are probably still appropriate for Bos primigenius but which may also conceivably draw on an intensified conception of a beast which no longer was as common as it once was.

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    The ancients often had fanciful ideas on the procreation and migration of animals. So I figure the phoenix may have existed, but locals never did figure out how it procreated.

    http://www.abdn.ac.uk/bestiary/bestiary.hti

    In my google search I stumbled on a page of Artistotle's observations. He obviously took care to synthesize what he observed.

    http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/AristotleBiol.htm

    So whatever happened? Aristotle went out of fashion, and fancy dominated until the 11th century.

    http://www.antlionpit.com/aura.html#zoology

    What I wanna know more about is the Behemoth of Job 40 and Leviathan of Job 41.

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