Legalism and JW's: Arguing putting faith in grace rather than jw works

by Check_Your_Premises 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Check_Your_Premises

  Many Christians who have had to deal with a jw on any kind of regular basis will come around to discussions on how salvation is accepted. Now the jw will say that salvation is through faith alone, but then they will insist that we must obey. Furthermore they have a great deal of faith in their spiritual regimen to keep them on the straight and narrow.

  This is how I explained it to one recently.

  So often when we are trying to understand God's relationship with man, it is useful to consider the analogy of a father to his child. Initially man was like an infant. He was completely unequipped in his experience and understanding to deal with the ability to know good and evil. Just like an infant that does not even know not to crawl off the bed, early man had no concept of the ramifications of sin. God had to deal directly with man to correct his behavior.

  Later as man gained more knowledge and understanding, God gave basic rules. Do not kill. Do not steal. Do not worship other gods. Also once our children are able to understand our words, we give them simple commands. Don't play in the street. Don't run with scissors. Don't hit your sister.

  Eventually though, as a parent you hope that while following the rules, a basic understanding of the rationale behind the rules will set in. Eventually you expect your child to grow to the point where they really don't need your rules to function. They have the maturity and judgement to make the right decisions. Now they will make mistakes, and you will have to correct them from time to time, but when it comes time to leave home, they have the sense they need to make it.

  Now I also knew someone who was very strict with their child. THey gave him many rules. He followed them all. But he never grew in understanding of what the rules meant. When he left home and the rules of his parents he simply could not function at all.

  That is what I think God is expecting from us in having the law now written in our hearts. We are no longer under the law of God's (or the jw's) basic rules. He is expecting us to show some doggone maturity and to know right and wrong without having a list of rules to follow. There are two basic rules. Any question beyond that is a matter of what is in your heart. If you are turning away from sin in your desires YOU ARE NOT SINNING!!!

  My 2 cents. The jw didn't have much to say to all that.

  THoughts?
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  carla

  Wouldn't expect that they would have much to say about that. Had that same conversation myself with a jw. (funny how us ubm's are here tonight hey?)

  The argument to look at our relationship with God and that of a parent doesn't seem to hold with jw's. As we see, a jw parent will often give up their child. If one is to believe the Bible, God would not do that, at least in the NT. I have found that my jw simply does not understand what 'mature Christian' means. To simply change behavior instead of ones heart does not lead to maturity. The constant fear of 'what if I get found out' or 'that's not allowed' or 'we (jw's) don't do that', rather than a true feeling of trying to please Christ is what leads to maturity.They are so busy trying to please the men of the org and making good appearances in the hall. Another analogy could be when you are in love, you so want to please the other person because you love them. He cannot seem to understand that people can indeed make the right choices in life without the aid of someone telling them what to do. Why? Well, that's when they like to point out your own personal failings "and see what you do?" Then it turns into a 'take the log out of your eye first' thing. Then it will go to 'aren't you doing the same thing when you point out all the failings of the wt?' around and around.

  When your children are little they want to please you because 'you know everything' and they love you dearly. Then they turn into teenagers and want to spread their wings a bit, maybe you don't know everything (and maybe nothing!). When they become an adult you hope you have given them the tools to make those right choices, not because you as the parent will be unahappy by their choice, but because certain choices really will hurt them in the long run. I too know a few kids who just went off to college, the ones with the super strict parents are partying it up. And for the girls especially I worry. They just cannot judge character at all. How could they when they have been kept in a bubble all these years? I found that when you expect the best from them they will usually make those right choices. Maybe I have just been blessed with mature and great kids, I dunno.

  As for the law being written upon our hearts, how do jw's feel about that? For instance, in almost every culture (even tribal) certain things are shall we say 'illegal'. Incest, rape, murder and so on. What is also interesting to me is that in almost all cultures also is the belief in some sort of afterlife. That something, some part of 'you' continues and lives on.
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  M.J.

  Another point is that God knows us better than we know ourselves. If God has the foresight to accept us as his children, shouldn't he know what He's doing enough to not have to put us into an "evaluation period"? I have a human father who I love very much...even HE knows me well enough to already know I will ALWAYS be his loyal son. But of course JWs of the "other sheep" don't believe they've made it to "son of God" status until after the 1000 years. They have to WORK to acheive that all-important status. Their being able to refer to Jehovah as FATHER is simply a concession by the WTS. This is one of the roadblocks to your analogy, CYP. Yet the 144,000 have acheived such a status already...

  What if I showed devotion and "love" to my dad with his ESTATE in mind (not that it's very extensive, but that's beside the point)? What if I felt that the more I impressed him with presents, conversations on the phone, helping with yardwork at his house, etc., the more likely he would reward me with a big chunk of that estate? Is that anywhere NEAR where a son's love for his father should come from? Nope. He's my dad no matter what and I'm his loyal son no matter what because I love him.
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  M.J.

  I like how your title reads. JWs DO put FAITH in their efforts, because they are putting faith in a human SYSTEM rather than GOD.

  As the book "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse" (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/59888/1.ashx) touches on, a tendency of abusive religious leaders is to engage in "Power Posturing". Basically that's when they constantly remind the membership about their authority, putting the main emphasis on obedience, submission, and performance. This is an effective way to mobilize a military group, for example, but can get scary when it happens within a religious setting. This can and does lead to a system where people basically can't distinguish between their loyalty to a religious leadership and their loyalty to God. When this is taken even a step further--when they start to say that God will destroy those who aren't loyal to the system, you have a system where fear dominates.

  Of course you know all this, CYP...just thought I'd add a few more thoughts.
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Thanks MJ,

  The thing is the JW I was talking to doesn't really seem to grasp the two tiered nature of their belief system. The person is fairly new.

  Actually, I think the only difference this particular dub sees is that annointed go to heaven and the other sheep stay here. I am taking advantage of this bit of doctrinal ignorance in our discussions.

  The whole reason I posted this, and have talked about it is because this person just can't seem to get it through their head that salvation doesn't depend on following rules. The law is done away with, but somehow there are these laws that have to be followed.

  So going with my analogy, I would probably say that when a child is young we tell them not to cross the street. Once they mature, and the "law is written in their hearts" it is ok for them to cross the street. They understand that the principle (jw's use this one all the time to explain THEIR rules) is "don't get run over". I don't care if they cross the street thus disobeying my previous rule. I just care that they don't get run over!!!

  Same deal. God doesn't care if we celebrate Christmas! He just doesn't want us worshipping buhdda or making things in our life more important than our love for him. Which is to say there is no sinful desire in our heart. The heart is the fountainhead of sin. Without a decision (even temporary or subconsiously) first within us to turn away from God, sin will not take place.

  Sorry if I am being Captain Obvious here, but this is a difficult concept that I have been battling lately!
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  M.J.

  Hey thanks for that. That was articulated in a way that I hadn't thought of before. Great explanation. The best explanation is the simplest one, especially for a simpleton like me.
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  Check_Your_Premises

  Well I know you hear the same crap. "There has to be rules!" And of course, "So if there are no rules that means you can just do whatever you want?"

  No! It means God doesn't think he should have to give you rules! Why bother! You will just screw them up any way.
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  M.J.

  Tied in with that is not only knowledge of the principles behind the rules, but also the change in the "fountainhead" by the Spirit of God (Rom 8:9-11) enabling the change within us. The law in a way was set up as a case study to illustrate that we always screw it up on our own--until Christ came to set up a new way. (Rom 3:20-23)

  In dub thinking, however (something to watch out for), having things written on your heart falls in the ever-so-small category of "conscience matter". While seasoned dubs WILL assert that a "conscience matter" is something that is not specifically addressed in the Bible, in practice it is whatever the WTS hasn't taken a position on. Whatever position the WTS has taken is automatically "in the Bible" in a dub's mind. Rather Pharisee-like.
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  M.J.

  Well I know you hear the same crap. "There has to be rules!" And of course, "So if there are no rules that means you can just do whatever you want?"

  Rom 6: 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16 Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. 18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

  [Paul concentrates on the change of nature--we have the desire, the sense and the ability through the Spirit to naturally follow God's ways without the need for specific rules--to the extent that we walk in the Spirit vs the sinful nature, c.f. Rom 7:21-25]
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  Check_Your_Premises

  You are really bringing up some great points! I guess you are having a lot of the same conversations. I am starting to want to put them together in a comprehensive form. I really like your comparison of children and slaves!