Why naturalism is irrational

by Shining One 369 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  LittleToe

  Kid:
  You're still missing the point, because you're limiting the stimulus to a 4D reality.

  If you inhabit more than just four dimensions then those other parts of YOU could be receiving stimulae which affects even the physical part of YOU without you necessarily being able to scientifically measure it (at this time) or physically sense it as an "external" event.

  Maybe, bringing us back to the "Naturalism" topic, man is evolving to be able to interact and perceive these dimensions in a manner that has heretofore been sporadic.
• 

  kid-A

  If you inhabit more than just four dimensions then those other parts of YOU could be receiving stimulae which affects even the physical part of YOU without you necessarily being able to scientifically measure it (at this time) or physically sense it as an "external" event.

  And how would this ever be demonstrable? Hypothetically, anything is a 'possbility', but at the moment, the available evidence we have is that we are biological, organic life forms. I think this is where our dialogue must inevitably break down, because I would ultimately require some demonstration of the aforementioned 'alternate dimensions' before I would entertain the above hypothesis. We can give somebody LSD and have them tell us that their mind has "travelled to another dimension" yet we know these experiences are due to dysregulated neuronal firing through glutamate signalling pathways in specific neural circuits.

  If we have no way of testing these dimensional possibilities (regardless of whether this will or will not be a reality in the future), I see neither the utility of these hypotheses nor any practical applications based upon our current level of understanding of neurobiology and astrophysics. Having said that, it would be incredible if we COULD test and examine these questions, but I fear this will be several thousand years (and several billion dollars from NIH) into the future!!
• 

  Daunt

  There could be more deminsions to our 4D reality, however, knowing us humans, we will claim anything and it's mother as that other deminsion. Whether it be Wiccan beliefs or Christian cults. People atribute this forth dimension to the devil to Buddha however there has been nothing demonstrated and observed besides the excess of human emotions and irrationalism behind those kind of thoughts. Sorry but it is just the plain truth... too many people atribute this extra dimension to them to support cult activity and ethnic cleansing. Just nothing substantial supporting them.
• 

  OldSoul

  kid-A

  I don't demand that what I have experienced has to be demonstrable to you for it to be real. You cannot demonstrate the color "green" to a man born color-blind, can you?

  Does it not exist because you can't demonstrate it to him? Of course it does. It may not exist within his perspective of reality, but it certainly exists in mine. How sad it would seem to you, who can see green, to hear such a man deny its existence just because he can't see it.

  There is much that we cannot demonstrate to certain humans, given their inability to perceive certain aspects of reality, that makes them no less real. Try demonstrating a birdsong to a deaf person.

  Viewing yourself as having a limited perspective is no doubt uncomfortable for you, I can understand that.

  Respectfully,
  
  OldSoul
• 

  Daunt

  I don't demand that what I have experienced has to be demonstrable to you for it to be real. You cannot demonstrate the color "green" to a man born color-blind, can you?
  
  
  
  
  
  And implying that individuals are much like the color blind man is an example of using an analogy that does not equate properly. In the color blind man's situation, reality still exists because it exists. Your extra dimensional activity has just not been demonstrated before, in an individual's perspective reality nor in reality as a whole. Of course I can not say that absolutely but from evidence as a guide it is up there with the teapot around mars.
  
  Explain how it is demonstrable to you Oldsoul or whoever else wants to contribute.
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  LT,

  If you inhabit more than just four dimensions then those other parts of YOU could be receiving stimulae which affects even the physical part of YOU without you necessarily being able to scientifically measure it (at this time) or physically sense it as an "external" event.

  Maybe, bringing us back to the "Naturalism" topic, man is evolving to be able to interact and perceive these dimensions in a manner that has heretofore been sporadic.

  it would be super cool. and as a science fiction fan, i won't say it's not possible.

  still though, if this were the case, then this other dimension would still have to stimulate us biologically, and interact with the physical, as kid-A points out. and if it is interacting, then it really should not be beyond measurement. neuroscientists should have detected some very strange phenomena by now, no?

  why have our five senses developed at all in the last 3 billion years? why are those five so strong? of course, it's all about survival in an object oriented world. why only five? why not 6 or 7? it's because the five aid us in survival. there is no natural selection pressure for a sensitivity to the "other", most possibly because there is no "other".

  but if we are evolving to allow interaction with "other", then why have humans been going on and on about the "other" for so long? you'd think that in an object oriented world, we would not believe in any "other" or spirit beings. we should have all been agnostic as long as survival was the most important.

  it is a compelling line of thought, however, i must say. it sounds a bit elitist (now religious people have evolved further than non-religious people), but still fun.
• 

  Daunt

  If you want to look at history and consensus, that last statement that tetra said would seem to be the other way around. (is evil).
• 

  OldSoul

  Daunt: Color science does not exist because a man can not see color? balderdash. When we speak of demonstration we speak of scientific demonstration to regulate reality, not personal perspectives and circumstances.

  If everyone was color-blind to the color green, green would still exist. And if I was the only one who could see it, what would science say? That it was a trick of my mind and if I take this pill they could make green go away. And they could, too.

  I don't think you saw the end result of my argument, but I also don't think you bothered yourself to consider what I wrote, at all.

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul
• 

  tetrapod.sapien

  old soul,

  Does it not exist because you can't demonstrate it to him? Of course it does. It may not exist within his perspective of reality, but it certainly exists in mine. How sad it would seem to you, who can see green, to hear such a man deny its existence just because he can't see it.

  he wouldn't deny it. he would just have to read (with his fingers silly) that the color green is observable to other humans endowed with eyes that see. you know old soul, scientists can publish papers in braille too. it's like us being incredulous to infrared. your analogy does not hold up, because you are yet to deliver the goods on this spirit realm you keep going on about. you know, a la "eyes of faith"? at this point, the color scientists are way ahead.

  There is much that we cannot demonstrate to certain humans, given their inability to perceive certain aspects of reality, that makes them no less real. Try demonstrating a birdsong to a deaf person.

  so, skeptics are now more relational to a deaf, blind and dumb person than a faith believer is realitive to a mentally ill person? so let me get this straight:

  you make up an imaginary world. you assert the primacy of your belief that it actually exists. then when people say "show me the money", you tell them that not being able to see it is like being a blind person, or a deaf person. "sorry kiddo, you just don't have what it takes."

  or is it simply a matter of growing some "eyes of faith"?

  Viewing yourself as having a limited perspective is no doubt uncomfortable for you, I can understand that.

  viewing yourself as delusional must be uncomfortable too. i can understand that, i used to be a JW.

  TS
• 

  OldSoul

  tetrapod.sapien: now religious people have evolved further than non-religious people

  In terms of evolution, different is not always better. Right?

  Respectfully,
  OldSoul