Watchtower Gives Up Explaining 607 BCE Date!

by VM44 239 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    Not at all. Read verse 2 which clearly states that Jeremiah addressed his words to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Read verse 3 which refers to 'You people', verse 4 again right through to verse 7 again adressed to the Jewish people. The passage from 8-11 is clearly marked for God's people as an oracle and also by extension included an oracle for the nations which further specified from 12. So even a cursory reading indicates that those verses are for Judah alone proving the Josephusian formula of exile-servitude-desolation.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    Not at all. Read verse 2 which clearly states that Jeremiah addressed his words to the people of Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. Read verse 3 which refers to 'You people', verse 4 again right through to verse 7 again adressed to the Jewish people. The passage from 8-11 is clearly marked for God's people as an oracle and also by extension included an oracle for the nations which further specified from 12. So even a cursory reading indicates that those verses are for Judah alone proving the Josephusian formula of exile-servitude-desolation.

    Again, you selectively interpret scripture in a rediculous manner.

    Verses 1 and 2 introduce the part of the prophecy that immediately relate to Judah, specifically the reason for what will happen to them, because the Jews had not repented despite repeated requests, as explained in verses 3 to 6. Verse 7 indicates that Judah's opportunity to repent had ended.

    Verse 8 says "this is what Jehovah of armies has said". (There is no indication that the 70 years had not already begun, only that Jehovah had decided what would happen - speculatively, if Judah had repented it may have escaped judgement but it is unlikely that Babylon's rise to power or the impact on other nations would have changed, as confirmed in verse 29.) Verses 8 to 11 relate that Nebuchadnezzar would be sent against "all the families of the north", "all these nations round about", "all this land", "these nations", which would include Judah but can by no means be restricted to it. Verse 11 explicitly states that "nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years". (The 70 years are applied only to nations serving Babylon, not specifically of the bringing of Babylon against the nations and desolating them. As the Society properly points out in its description of the 70 years for Tyre, the 70 years refer to its period of dominance.) In view of the entire context, there is no way of validly restricting the descriptions in verses 8 to 11 to only Judah.

    Verses 12 to 14 indicate that after the 70 years had ended, Babylon and its king would begin to be judged. There is no room for its judgement to begin before the end of that period, and the first and most significant part of Babylon's judgement came in 539, which ended the 70 years, (which is also confirmed by verse 26).

    Verses 15 and 16 instruct Jeremiah to take the judgement to the nations. The only judgement that has been indicated for the nations is in verses 8 to 11, so it is essential that those verses refer to other nations (although that is blatantly obvious from the verses themselves anyway).

    Verses 17 to 26 go on to list the nations that would receive the judgement, and includes that at the end, Sheshach (Babylon) would also receive judgement.

    Verses 27 to 29 indicate that the nations will not avoid punishment. The rest of the chapter indicates the severity and the extent of the judgement against the nations.

  • eyeslice
    eyeslice

    This thread has rambled off topic.
    The point is that WTBTS has ran out of ideas. The 607 thing is not being pushed. They make vague statements like 'Bible Chronology proves'.
    They have no theologians and so have given up trying to explain the 'deep things of the Bible'.
    Eyeslice

  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    You demonstrate poor comprehension skills because the verses from 1 until 11 clearly are addressed to Judah and its people as almost every verse attests. Your summary nicely proves my point that up till verse 11 it was for Judah and from verse 12 forward applies the oracle to the nations.

    In fact the WBC on Jeremiah treats the material as I have stated.

    scholar JW

  • ackack
    ackack

    Scholar, I don't get it. vs 8 says "and I will bring them against this land and its inhabitants and against all the surrounding nations". vs 11 says "This whole country will become a desolate wasteland, and these nations will serve the king of Babylon seventy years". Both statements seem to expand the scope of these words beyond Judah. How do you understand these two verses then if they strictly apply to Judah?

    ackack

  • onacruse
    onacruse

    If I may be so simplistic as to offer this perspective:

    The proof is in the pudding.

    The generation of 1914 has come, and essentially gone, beyond whatever the WTS said it would be. Redefinition upon redefinition doesn't cover that fact. The WTS is now in no better a theological position than the Mormons, or the Seventh-Day Adventists...or any other eschatological religion that has ever visited upon this planet.

    scholar (so named), you can spout all you want about the accolades of the the WTS, and the supreme value of the WTS, and the deep knowledge of the "anointed" ones...but you can't argue against this one, plain, simple, demonstrable, fact: the end has not arrived, as the WTS led us to believe, and has led millions of people to believe, for the last 100 years.

    These "anointed" have almost all died, as will you. There're not but few dozen who are still alive from the original group of the pre-1935 "anointed ones." If you doubt my assertion, then just call headquarters.

    You won't get an answer, even if you had the courage to make the call.

    The 607 date falls flat on its face, in view of the reality of what has not happened.

  • sir82
    sir82

    Good points on the generation of 1914...

    I foresee a growing problem with the 1914 date as 2014 approaches...it is going to be increasingly harder to convince people that when Jesus talked about "the last days", he really meant "the last centuries"...

  • TD
    TD
    The WTS is now in no better a theological position than the Mormons,

    Whatdayamean?

    The Gentile nations invisible lease of power was invisibly cancelled by the invisible king who even now is ruling invisibly.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The Gentile nations invisible lease of power was invisibly cancelled by the invisible king who even now is ruling invisibly.

    Sounds reasonable. What could be more clear than completely invisible?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    You demonstrate poor comprehension skills because the verses from 1 until 11 clearly are addressed to Judah and its people as almost every verse attests. Your summary nicely proves my point that up till verse 11 it was for Judah and from verse 12 forward applies the oracle to the nations.

    You are an embarrassment to yourself. Though Judah is included in verses 8-11, there is absolutely no way that any educated person could honestly say that these verses apply only to Judah.

    Will anyone put their hand up and say they agree with 'scholar' here??

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