From A German-English on-line dictionary:
Search results for -- Suchergebnisse für 'Magd':
maid -- die Magd menial -- die Magd servant -- die Magd
A Gospel Puzzle
by thinker 18 Replies latest watchtower bible
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JCanon
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chappy
Interesting. I really learned something. As a "question from readers" can you imagine the answer us poor dumb sheep would have received from "mother?"
This is probably somewhat off topic but it seems I always find some small bone of contention with all WT sources of Information. One example quoted in this topic: Matt 28:5 "Do not you be fearful, for I know you are looking for Jesus who was impaled." Why does The WTS insist on inaccurately substituting the word "impalement" for crucifixion in all of its literature including the NWT? Impale is defined: (1) "To pierce with a sharp stake or point" (2) "To torture or kill by impaling." American Heritage Dictionary. Many fans of vampire lore may be familiar with the account of Vlad the Impaler, 15th century leader of what is now Romania. The modern day Dracula stories are based on him. His favorite means of torture and execution was impalement. Here is a brief description of the procedure:
Impalement was and is one of the most gruesome ways of dying imaginable. Usually a horse was attached to each of the victim's legs and as they were held apart a sharpened stake was gradually forced into the body. The end of the stake was usually oiled and care was taken that the stake not be too sharp; else the victim might die too rapidly from shock. Normally the stake was inserted into the body through the rectum and forced through the body until it emerged from the mouth. However, there were many instances where victims were impaled through other bodily orifices or through the abdomen or chest. Infants were sometimes impaled on the same stake forced through their mother's chest.
Taken From"The Historical Dracula" by F.Ray Porter
This means of execution can hardly be compared to Crucifixion.
When I brought this question up to a group of JW relatives several years ago they reasoned (sic) that the term impalement was indeed the correct definition due to the penetration of the nails through Christ hands and feet, even implying that the Jehovah's Witnesses were the only ones who "had it right." When I had them read Matt 27:38; "Then the two robbers were impaled with him -" (bound, no nails) they lost most of their steam, saying they would get back to me in a couple of days with "the societies" explanation. Never happened of course.
Anyone else dealt with this question before?
chappy
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JCanon
Hi Leolaia. You know languages borrow from one another. I'm wondering if "Magda" and "Madeline" as a maid in French could have been influenced by the use in the Middle East?
And sometimes there is a play on words and nick names. Someone sugested it related to the number three. I had thought it was possible they were triplets and it was similar to "Mary the Triplet" or something. Or maybe the tower at Magdala hat three prominent steeples or something. I don't know. Could they have been identical triplets who called themselves "Mary Magdalene"? I think the name described them in some way, even relating to coming from Magdala, which was in Galilee where Jesus was. Mabye there were three Mary's from Magdala who began to follow Jesus. With the commoness and popularity of the name Mary, that wouldn't seem that unlikely.
But I do know this, the language referring to the three instances of Mary visiting the tomb is not well appreciated as far as how specific the time references were. Back then, the specific times of each event would have been understood and established these were three different events at three different times and thus at some point we one would presume they gospels were speaking of three different women. In fact, if one account gave the three accounts that would be quite clear. The fact that they are scattered among 4 books makes things complex. In that way, though the gospels as well as the Bible goes out of its way to create these close parallels between the gospels.
Case in point is where Jesus says that Peter would deny him thre times before a cock crowed once and before a cock crowed twice. Some see this is a gloss or contradiction instead of an expansion. That is, that before a cock crowed the first time, he would have denied Jesus at least three times, and then, in the very short time before the cock crows again, he would deny Jesus another three times. When you examine the gospels closely, this becomes clear. He began denying Jesus from when he got into the courtyard, then once more when questioned and then a final time when being questioned while Jesus was standing right there. At that point a cock crowed and Jesus looked at Peter. Peter was devastated and hastened to leave the courtyard to go outside and weep. But there were various areas to pass through including a foyer that led outside. A girl began to follow Peter as he rushed to leave and accuse him and that is when he denied Christ twice more and when he passed the group in the gatehouse just before the exit they questioned him and again he denied Christ at which point a cock crowed a second time. So it took him about the time between cock crows to leave out of the courtyard and through the gate house to the outside, but he had to pass many people milling around to do so.
But this is a complex analysis to determine this. It seems it was deliberately not made easy.
But this style teaches us to pay critical attention to detail. Case in point it would seem that the Matthew and Mark's accounts about the fall of Jerusalem had something to do with the "great tribulation" and Daniel's prophecy paralleled in Luke, but it doesn't. Matthew and Mark's prophecies clearly apply to the last days which would exclude a reference to the fall of Jerusalem in 70. But of note, Luke makes no mention of either Daniel's prophecy or uses the term "great tribulation". So it is something "else" that Jesus said left out of Matthew and Mark but included in Luke that needs to be fitted in and is a clue to how the prophesy is later fulfilled.
So that is one more factor that has to be considered here, which is a deliberate omission that there were three Mary Magdalenes, a deliberate avoidance to mention both in a single gospel, etc.
So is Jesus the sort of person who likes to speak in puzzles so that outsiders are confused and his "insiders" gain secret knowledge? YES! That's precisely his personality. Don't forget after his resurrection how he pretended not to know that much with his two disciples on the road until he finally revealed himself. Plus all those disguises after his resurrection. His disciples never really knew who he was unless he gave himself away.
So I agree, that logically, when there is a need to make something clear, the gospels do so. But if they want something to be obscure, they are good at that two. They took advantage of the three Mary Magdalenes to demonstrate this parallel contradictions kind of history. But it is very typical. Secrets of details are hidden in the general reference. That's another aspect to consider, anyway. Any time there is a parallel account, there is a potential for a hidden detail if you can find the variation and work it out.
JC
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Leolaia
From A German-English on-line dictionary
I do not see how this supports your claim or more specifically how it responds to my comment.
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Leolaia
You know languages borrow from one another. I'm wondering if "Magda" and "Madeline" as a maid in French could have been influenced by the use in the Middle East?
There is absolutely no evidence at all of a word of this sort in use in the Middle East. Nor of a borrowing from Germanic into Hebrew (very remote contact), and "Magda" in German is absolutely not a borrowing from the Middle East because (1) the word has a clear Germanic and Indo-European etymology, and (2) there is no "Middle East" word that meant "servant, girl, maid" that would have been borrowed as "magda" into German or French. Basically, you have noted a word in a different language that partly resembles a name in another language, and have posited a relationship without any evidence of that relationship. Your harmonization of the gospel accounts is based on a speculation about the meaning of "Magdalene" that has no linguistic basis whatsoever.
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thinker
Thank you all for your comments, but I think it's time to solve the puzzle. First let me give credit to the author I'm currently reading. The book is Caesar's Messiah by Joseph Atwill.
Now let's review the history leading up to 1st century Israel. After many years of foreign domination the Maccabees, thru violent revolution, gain a few years of independence for the Jews. Herod sides with Rome and Rome conquers Israel. The rebels go underground and continue to harass the Romans.
At first the Romans try to stop the violence thru force, but the rebels have a strong religious belief that a messiah is coming who will be a warrior king and smite their enemies. The rebels willingly die rather than submit to Rome and it's god caesar. Having failed to stop the revolution with outside force, Caesar decides to attack the root of the problem, ie. the beliefs themselves. If the rebels expect a messiah then Rome will give them one. But this messiah will fulfill every wish Caesar has for the nation of Israel. They will love their enemies (ie. Romans), pay their taxes ("Give to caesar what is..."), and be most helpful to the occupying army ("If a soldier asks you to carry his load one mile offer to carry it two"). The leaders of the new religion could even say that God ordained the Romans to rule Israel (like Paul said). Of course it will be necessary to destroy the old religion's temple. And to keep close tabs on this new religion it should have it's headquarters in Rome.
To take credit for this trickery Caesar has some puzzles inserted into the testimony of this new messiah. The numerous contradictions give the reader clues that a puzzle is there. Those smart enough to solve the puzzle are rewarded with a humorous tale of Caesar's making.
And now one of those puzzles. Keep in mind this is Roman fiction and meant to be comedy. Who is the butt of the joke? The first person to find the empty tomb and the first person to see Jesus is Mary which in hebrew is Miriam meaning "rebellious". This is a comedy about those rebellious jews and it presents them as buffoons for believing a dead man can come back to life.
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thinker
John 11:38-39, 44
John 20:1-5
Matt 28:1-2,8
John 20:6-7
Mark 16:2-8
John 20:8
Luke 24:1-10
John 20:10
Luke 24:22-24
John 20:14-18
Within a week prior to Jesus's burial there is an empty tomb with burial wrappings left behind.
John 11: 38 Hence Jesus, after groaning again within himself, came to the memorial tomb. It was, in fact, a cave, and a stone was lying against it. 39 Jesus said: "T AKE the stone away." Martha, the sister of the deceased, said to him: "Lord, by now he must smell, for it is four days."
John 11:44 The [man] that had been dead came out with his feet and hands bound with wrappings, and his countenance was bound about with a cloth. Jesus said to them: "Loose him and let him go."
In the dark, Mary Magdalene goes alone to the cemetery to find Jesus's tomb. She sees Lazarus's tomb with the stone rolled away and assumes it is Jesus's tomb.
John 20:1 On the first day of the week Mary Mag'da·lene came to the memorial tomb early, while there was still darkness, and she beheld the stone already taken away from the memorial tomb.
She runs to Simon Peter and the other disciple (John) and tells them what she has seen.
John 20:2 Therefore she ran and came to Simon Peter and to the other disciple, for whom Jesus had affection, and she said to them: "They have taken away the Lord out of the memorial tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him."
Peter is also with John and Simon Peter. Peter and John start off running toward the tomb. John gets there first.
John 20:
3 Then Peter and the other disciple went out and started for the memorial tomb. 4 Yes, the two together began to run; but the other disciple ran ahead of Peter with greater speed and reached the memorial tomb first.John looks inside and sees Lazarus's burial wrappings but stays outside the tomb.
John 20:5 And, stooping forward, he beheld the bandages lying, yet he did not go in.
We now have one tired man outside the tomb. John sits down to rest.
Mary Magdalene returns with the other Mary to show her the empty tomb.
Matt 28:1 After the sabbath, when it was growing light on the first day of the week, Mary Mag'da·lene and the other Mary came to view the grave.
The two Marys mistake John for an angel.
Matt 28:2 And, notice! a great earthquake had taken place; for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and approached and rolled away the stone, and was sitting on it.
The two Marys run off.
Matt 28:8 So, quickly leaving the memorial tomb, with fear and great joy, they ran to report to his disciples.
Peter still has not showed up at the tomb; but Simon Peter, who was with John and Peter, wanders in. He enters the tomb.
John 20:6 Then Simon Peter also came following him (John), and he entered into the memorial tomb. And he viewed the bandages lying, 7 also the cloth that had been upon his head not lying with the bandages but separately rolled up in one place.
We now have Simon Peter in the tomb and John somewhere outside. Peter's whereabouts is unknown.
Mary Magdalene and the other Mary return with Salome.
Mark 16: 2 And very early on the first day of the week they (Mary M., Mary, Salome) came to the memorial tomb, when the sun had risen.
They enter the tomb and mistake Simon Peter for an angel.
Mark 16:5 When they entered into the memorial tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side clothed in a white robe, and they were stunned. 6 He said to them: "Stop being stunned. Y
OU are looking for Jesus the Naz·a·rene', who was impaled. He was raised up, he is not here. See! The place where they laid him.Simon Peter knows John is just outside somewhere but still hasn't seen Peter, so he specifically asks the women to tell the disciplees and Peter.
Mark 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of
YOU into Gal'i·lee; there YOU will see him, just as he told YOU .’"The three women flee and don't tell any disciples yet.
Mark 16:8 So when they came out they fled from the memorial tomb, for trembling and strong emotion were gripping them. And they told nobody anything, for they were in fear.
John now joins Simon Peter in the tomb.
John 20:8 At that time, therefore, the other disciple who had reached the memorial tomb first also went in, and he saw and believed.
We now have two men in the tomb.
Mary Magdalene returns with Joanna and Mary mother of James who had prepared spices for Jesus's body. They enter the tomb and see John and Simon Peter. They mistake them for two angels.
Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, however, they went very early to the tomb, bearing the spices they had prepared. 2 But they found the stone rolled away from the memorial tomb, 3 and when they entered they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were in perplexity over this, look! two men in flashing clothing stood by them. 5 As the [women] became frightened and kept their faces turned to the ground, the [men] said to them: "Why are
YOU looking for the living One among the dead? ... 10(a) They were the Mag'da·lene Mary, and Jo·an'na, and Mary the [mother] of James....The other Mary and Salome have gone to find the disciples.
Luke 24:10(b) Also, the rest of the women with them were telling the apostles these things. 11 However, these sayings appeared as nonsense to them and they would not believe the [women].
John and Simon Peter go home.
John 20:10 And so the disciples went back to their homes.
The women meet the disciples at home to discuss what they think has happened.
Luke 24:22 Moreover, certain women from among us also astonished us, because they had been early to the memorial tomb 23 but did not find his body and they came saying they had also seen a supernatural sight of angels, who said he is alive.
Two other disciples leave the house to see for themselves.
Luke 24:24 Further, some of those with us went off to the memorial tomb; and they found it so, just as the women had said, but they did not see him."
Mary Magdalene goes to the tomb again and begins to cry. She looks inside and sees the two disciples who came to see for themselves. She mistakes these two for angels.
John 20:11 Mary, however, kept standing outside near the memorial tomb, weeping. Then, while she was weeping, she stooped forward to look into the memorial tomb 12 and she viewed two angels in white sitting one at the head and one at the feet where the body of Jesus had been lying. 13 And they said to her: "Woman, why are you weeping?" She said to them: "They have taken my Lord away, and I do not know where they have laid him."
Mary Magdalene leaves the tomb and sees the gardener. When the gardener calls her by name she thinks he's Jesus.
John 20:14 After saying these things, she turned back and viewed Jesus standing, but she did not discern it was Jesus. 15 Jesus said to her: "Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you looking for?" She, imagining it was the gardener, said to him: "Sir, if you have carried him off, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away." 16 Jesus said to her: "Mary!" Upon turning around, she said to him, in Hebrew: "Rab·bo'ni!" (which means "Teacher!")
The gardener is shocked and tells her to let go of him.
John 20:17 Jesus said to her: "Stop clinging to me....
Mary Magdalene returns to the disciple's home with the news.
John 20:18 Mary Mag'da·lene came and brought the news to the disciples: "I have seen the Lord!" and that he said these things to her.
That this was all a case of mistaken identity is brought home by the additional accounts of the disciples encounters with 'Jesus'.
Matt 28:17 and when they saw him they did obeisance, but some doubted.
Mark 16:12 Moreover, after these things he appeared in another form to two of them walking along, as they were going into the country;
Luke 24:37 But because they were terrified, and had become frightened, they were imagining they beheld a spirit.
Luke 24:16 but their eyes were kept from recognizing him.
John 21:4 However, just as it was getting to be morning, Jesus stood on the beach, but the disciples did not, of course, discern that it was Jesus.
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thinker
BTW, this comedy of errors not only pokes fun at the rebel jews; it also contains a satire on the old testament idea that angels often appeared as men (see Abraham, Lot, etc.). The author seems to be saying, "If angels can appear as men, then men can be confused with angels!".
thinker
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Narkissos
Obscura per obscuriora...