Cross or a Stake - which was it?

by KAYTEE 120 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Cygnus

    Thanks, Leolaia, for continuing this thread for lurkers.

    That the WT completely botched their research about the cross being used as the instrument of Jesus' death was the final straw for me; I quit the JWs for good after researching this issue for myself.

    Of course I'm not convinced Jesus even existed.

    But that's another issue. Whatever Jesus allegedly died on is not really all that relevant to the discussion; the undeniable fact is that celebrated Watchtower scholars have deliberately mishandled references and others' research. Lipsius is clearly misused. This dogmatic assertion:

    *** Rbi8 p. 1578 5C "Torture Stake" *** Evidence is, therefore, completely lacking that Jesus Christ was crucified on two pieces of timber placed at right angles.

    ... is completely and utterly stupid. And, even Rolf Furuli agrees that "torture stake" is an untenable translation, grammatically speaking. Edited to add: Deut 21 says the person who dies on the tree is to be accursed, not the tree itself. So why does the WT use this as evidence?


    w50 11/1 p. 427 Was Christ Hung on a Cross? ***

    Says the celebrated Jewish authority, Moses Mai·mon´i·des, of the 12th century: ‘They never hang upon a tree which clings to the soil by roots; but upon a timber uprooted, that it might not be an annoying plague: for a timber upon which anyone has been hanged is buried; that the evil name may not remain with it and people should say, "This is the timber on which so-and-so was hanged." So the stone with which anyone has been stoned; and the sword, with which the one killed has been killed; and the cloth or mantle with which anyone has been strangled; all these things are buried along with those who perished.’ (Apud Casaub. in Baron. Exercitat. 16, An. 34, Num. 134

    Scholar, was Jesus entombed with that telephone pole? (This question is mine; I can't decolor my text for some reason.)

  • Leolaia

    So also this reference to Lipsius, which implies that he did not agree with general opinion about Christ's crucifixion:

    *** w80 2/15 p. 30 Insight on the News ***

    Whether the wooden sculpture is the work of the 16th-century artist Michelangelo or not, it illustrates that the impalement of Christ on a cross frame has not always been so certain as Christendom’s leaders today would have people believe. For example, the 16th-century Roman Catholic scholar Justus Lipsius illustrated impalement on an upright stake in his book "De Cruce Liber Primus."

  • scholar


    Nope, not a meaning but the meaning, stauros means pole or stake with the cross a secondary or later meaning of the word. What the Gospel eyewitnesses saw was a stauros or stake upopn which Jesus was impaled. There is no evidence that contravenes that testimony. Methinks yoy have watched Mel Gibson' film the Passion and that is the basis for your nonsense.because Mel believes it was a cross.

    There are no additional features in the Gospel accounts that testify that Jesus did not on a stake but you could imagine otherwise for sure just as you can imagine it was cross without those features because of later traditions of cross which hace displaced the authentic stake. So, it is your imagination and tradition that seeds your maybe. I do not mind wearing the dunce cap you are wearing it right now because you cannot understand that stauros stake pure and simple.

    My argument based upon Deut 21:29 negates your maybe but is affirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians who describes the fulfillment as Jesus was hung on a tree or stake, nothing at all about a cross. Paul makes the link, he interprets the data accordingly and confirms the evidence.

    Yes, I can read back into the classical sources as you well know and Ic an begin with Prometheus who was fastened to a stake between the rocks, up high before all onlookers. This story in fact was the first source from the ancients used by the NWT in the appendix article explaining the use of torture stake rather than cross.

    I have remove the maybe and could be to the realm of scriptural and historical certainty, Jesus died on a stake. Pure and simple. scholar rides off in conquest.

    scholar JW

  • DanTheMan

    Once again college flunkout scholar vigorously applauds himself, while the rest of us shake our heads and wonder what the hell ever happened to him to make him so dang weird!

  • Narkissos

    No doubt about that, scholar has duly stake-checked the evidence.

  • Hellrider

    Scholar: You are truly amasing. A dosen people give you logical arguments why it is more probable that Jesus died on a cross, or a T-shaped device, and all you`re able to come up with, is:

    What the Gospel eyewitnesses saw was a stauros or stake upopn which Jesus was impaled. "argument" which you just keep on repeating, endlessly. However, it is no argument at all! The eyewitnesses refer to a "stauros", which is the word (and it`s meaning) we are in fact discussing here!!! What part of that sentence is it that you are unable to understand?

    My argument based upon Deut 21:29 negates your maybe but is affirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians who describes the fulfillment as Jesus was hung on a tree or stake, nothing at all about a cross

    ...and that is the point! Paul says Jesus was hung on a "stauros"! Again ( i feel like I am explaining something to a retard here): This word, and its meaning, is what we are discussing here! What part of that sentence is it that you don`t understand? Also, only a JW would be inable to understand that Deutoronomy is actually fulfilled, whether Jesus died on a cross or a pole. The use of crosses, both the -|- shape, the T-shape and the X-shape, only came into use in the last three centuries BC. And that would make it impossible for the author of Deuteronomy to refer to a "cross", the author of that text would have to refer to something similar, and something that was in use at that time. At that time, the custom was to stone trespassers and lawbreakers to death, as in Leviticus: 20:2 “You are to say to the Israelites, ‘Any man from the Israelites or from the foreigners who reside in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech must be put to death; the people of the people of the land must pelt him with stones"

    Joshua 10:26 "Then Joshua executed them and hung them on five trees. They were left hanging on the trees until evening. 10:27 At sunset Joshua ordered his men to take them down from the trees.They threw them into the cave where they had hidden and piled large stones over the mouth of the cave. (They remain to this very day.)"

    ...This is the custom of the old israelites, first stoning, then being hung on a stake. And already on this point, the customs described in the OT is not "fulfilled" as a prophecy (in the sense of Jesus`death) in the NT! - at least not int the way WT-doctrine would demand that it be fulfilled! It is not a problem for the rest of christianity, because they are able to see the analogy either way, it doesn`t really matter if it`s a stake (as would be the custom, had Jesus been executed under Jewish law, he would of course have been stoned first), or a cross (which is how he was actually executed, under roman law). The analogy is there, either way. But according to JW-doctrine, Jesus had to be killed the jewish way, to fulfill"prophecy". Well, first of all, he wasn`t stoned first. But more importantly, celebrated Scholar, answer me this: HOW LONG DID JESUS HANG ON THE CROSS!? He hung there over night, didn`t he?!? ! In spite of jewish custom and law! How do you get that to fit with your JW-doctrine? So you see, the romans didn`t give a rats ass about jewish custom and tradition. They didn`t care about the method of execution, or whether having Jesus hang there over night! Pilate didn`t tell his soldiers "make sure it`s a pole, because that`s what the jewish law says".

    My argument based upon Deut 21:29 negates your maybe but is affirmed by the Apostle Paul in Galatians who describes the fulfillment as Jesus was hung on a tree or stake,

    Again, you are simply repeating yourself. Galatians 3.13 says: "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree". The greek word is "zulon". And the meaning of "zulon", is dependent on its context. Leolaia has already shown you that it could mean "table","chair" or whatever, depending on the context. The net-bible ( says in its footnote: sn A quotation from Deut 21:23. By figurative extension the Greek word translated tree ( zuvlon , zulon ) can also be used to refer to a cross (L&N 6.28), the Roman instrument of execution. So please don`t just repeat yourself even more on this issue. It just makes you look stupid.

    I have remove the maybe and could be to the realm of scriptural and historical certainty, Jesus died on a stake. Pure and simple. scholar rides off in conquest.

    scholar JW

    Just keep on riding, celebrated Scholar, ride away into your neverending desert of ignorance. But I`m not going to tell you go jump in the Gehenna again. Like some of the others here, I am beginning to see you as an asset. You display the most horrible ignorance, you`re making yourself looking more and more like a retard, on every issue you are partaking in. So just keep up the good work.
  • stevenyc


    I'm no expert on ancient textual languages, however over the last couple of months I've been researching a few things including the reasons behind stating the crucifixion was on a single pole. I have no vested interest in this apart from historical curiosity. These are my finding so far.

    The definition can be one of four possibilities;

    1) an upright stake, only

    2) the cross beam attached to an upright pole

    3) the combination of an upright pole and crossbeam

    4) a tree or anything handy to kill someone in like manner

    There are many texts, Christian and not, the use reference to stauros, which imply all of the above. So, maybe it was an upright pole in the textual description, or a cross. Most people assert a cross, but if it turned out to be a single stake or a tree, I would enjoy the new historical discovery.

    What I am surprised about is the staunch attitude to defend the position that it is, and can only be, a single stake in the ground. As a Christian I would assume the death of Christ to pay for the sins of all humans, is the only part of importance. If I held such a belief in the redemption of Christ, and I believed he died on a single stake rather that the usual depiction of a stake and crossbeam, then at any challenge to my belief in the method of corporal punishment would be: 'Well, I'm sure he died this way, however, what is more important is the reason why he died."

    Ultimately it doesn't matter at all what the means were, only the ends.


  • jgnat
  • Hellrider

    I doubt he`ll understand the meaning of that one, Jgnat. You won`t find Don Quijote on the Watchtower curriculum... and hence, celebrated Scholar JW wìll never have heard of it.

    (but I certainly got a kick out of that one)


    Where the hell is "Uncle Bruce" when you need him?? Uncle Bruce say`s"Jesus dined on a steak." Uncle Bruce know`s,he was there!..And now for Scholar..You are one pompas dum-ass retard.You would have to raise your IQ considerably,just to be stupid..There are no WBTS celebrated scholars..NONE!..There isn`t any!..There never was any!..Zipp-O!,Ziltch!..NONE!! Get an education on the moronic WBTS.Get off your ass and do some simple research..Dipshit!...OUTLAW

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