"Our Father Which Art In Heaven"

by Hellrider 33 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Elsewhere

    The power of the Ori shall be felt far and wide, and the wicked shall be vanquished!

    Hallowed are the Ori!

  • stillajwexelder

    Nowhere in the OT could I find anything particular about "bread".

    Well manna was always though of as bread from heaven

  • Sara Annie
    Sara Annie
    Reciting a prayer is like going up to your dad and reading a "heartfelt" request to him off a 3x5 card. It isn't spontaneous and consequently isn't sincere in the way conversation with a parent should lack pretense. Recitation of magic words is the sort of thing mystical religious people riddled with superstitions approached worship. It is primitive and ritualistic.

    Terry, I tend to agree with you about the lack of personal connection that ritual (or recited) prayer involves. I happen to disagree, however, that it cannot be sincere due to it's lack of spontenaeity. Assuming for a moment that there is an all knowing, all seeing, benevolent creator of the universe who loves us and hears our prayers, I simply cannot believe that it is the order of those words--or the unique (or not so unique) arrangement that is important.

    I believe that the validity and sincerity of a conversation between man and God does not hinge on whether the prayer is extemporaneous or recited, but only on the intent behind the act itself. For many, there is comfort in the recitation of an existing prayer--it is knowing that what you sincerely wish to say has been said well before, in a way that makes sense to you--and where one might struggle with the words to express what you feel, another has captured that feeling in a form that speaks to you. I cannot imagine that the repeating of those words is less beautiful to the ear of God than those that are more impromptu in nature.

    When discussing prayer with a group of people several years ago, a friend of mine said something that has always stayed with me: She said "The desire to pray is a prayer in itself". I think that if one has the desire to pray, the intent to speak to God, it matters little the form the prayer takes.

    But that's just my 2 cents. (Edited because my formatting was all sorts of wacky!)

  • Hellrider
    When is a name not a name? If a policeman says: "Open or stop in the name of the law," we don't expect the law to have a literal name like Tom, Dick, or Harry. It means "by authority of."If someone calls me a name (epithet), it might not be Kenneson, if you get my drift. The man gave the complex a bad name (reputation).In football he made a name (fame) for himself.

    Likewise, hallowed be thy name or holy is your name does not refer to a literal name.

    Kenneson, good point.

  • LittleToe

    It's a backbone prayer, that allows your mind to spiral off onto a variety of subjects.

    Think of it this way - how fast can you say it? In about twenty seconds, if chanted? Does your mind work that slow, or are many other thoughts jumbling around inside your cranium, during that time?

    It leads your thoughts on a journey that is unique in any part of the day or week, because the context of your life at any given time adds flesh to the bones of this prayer.

    Most of the arguments against it (especially JW ones, and those typified by Terry's statements) show a blatant dearth of knowledge of how it can be used in spiritual work.

    HR:IMHO you missed out the most important bit for any mystic - that of aligning our will with that of the Divine.

  • Hellrider


    2.If somebody's name is hallowed it is set apart for a special purpose. The Jews did not use God's personal name for fear of violating the commandment against taking the name in vain. Not even Jesus, as a good Jew and a rabbi, violated this reverent taboo.

    Yes, that idea has occured to me too. And imo, if the son of god (seen from a christian viewpoint) didn`t even dare using gods name, it is heresy when the JWs shove the Jehovah-name into the NT in their NWT, all over the place.

  • MidwichCuckoo

    It's probably already been said - but I was taught that The Lord's Prayer is just an 'example' of how we SHOULD pray. God doesn't like repetition (tell that to the WT writers who revamp old stuff).

    I'm amazed at how many times the name 'Jehovah' is always insrted into a Dub-prayer. Personally, I could never get the hang of calling my Heavenly Father by his 'personal' name - I never would my Earthly Father as it's disrespectful. Just my opinion.

  • LittleToe

    I'm with ya on the "Dad's name" thing. Besides, why do I have to use a name when I'm there in His presence, and it's clearly directed at Him?

  • MidwichCuckoo

    AND - I don't think it's 'required' to do so either. I have sat through prayers at the KH and I swear 'Jehovah' must inserted about 30 times in ONE prayer. Can you imagine talking to your mate and calling him by his Christian name every few seconds? It'd drive him CRAZY. If they took His name out of the prayers, we could all leave/have left the KH 10 minutes earlier.

    It's a bit like that culture of people that use the 'F' word every other word - and they don't know they're doing it anymore.

  • LittleToe

    Other than occasionally in a greeting, I never use an individuals name in their presence. It should be clear whom is being addressed. A name is often "used" in this context in either a condescending way or to elicit attention. These are methods that I just don't have time for, and I bridle when they are used on me.

    In the case of prayer, it seems the JWs "use" it as a talisman, to be waved around frequently. It's the kind of rote use that they allegedly deplore.

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