by logansrun 61 Replies latest jw friends
Why don't you give me a list of things specific to being a JW that cannot be found outside their own closed system?
So, something must be unique to the organization before it can be good? I guess then, by this standard, nothing is good, since no one has a monopoly on any one kind of goodness.
greetings John...I guess my point is that there is nothing the Witnesses can claim as uniquely good versus say you and I acting like good persons toward each other and those that we interact with every day. If there are no particularly outstanding virtues they solely posses then I will certainly not ascribe anything "good" to them as a group. Sure there are good people who are Witnesses I would not doubt that. I would alsosay yes there is plenty of vitriol in regards the group and some individuals who have done bad things, but when those bad things by individuals are not addressed by the larger group, spoken about openly and fixed then the group is no better than their most offensive member. Just my two cents.
Sincerely,
District Overbeer
If there are no particularly outstanding virtues they solely posses then I will certainly not ascribe anything "good" to them as a group.
Hmm. Valis, I think you and I agree about the organization, but I don't see the logic here. Why do they have to be in 'sole possession' of something good in order to be considered (in some way) good? I don't think John Doe and I think the organization of JWs is whatsoever a "good organization." We just dislike the sweeping generalizations about them.
"None of them care about you."
"They're all so ignorant."
"I've never heard of an elder who wasn't a complete jerk."
Being able to say, "Yes, there were certainly good people in this organization--and, yes, some of the teachings were very good," in NO WAY suggests that it is a worthwhile organization. It isn't. Despite any positives, the leadership is deceptive, manipulative and continues to ruin people's lives in order to protect their authority.
Some exaggerations to make my point: I can admit that a sociopath is a snappy dresser or is nice to virtually all he has dealings with. But that doesn't make him ultimately good as a serial killer. I can admit that Mussolini made the trains run on time. But that didn't excuse his ruthless brutality. And I can admit that there are many wonderful, beautiful people found among Jehovah's Witnesses. But that doesn't mean the Watchtower Society hasn't been engaged in horrible things.
Good thread...
In some ways the JWs aren't even a blip on the radar of the world..nothing they say or do is taken very seriously.
I think that's why it's frustrating for those of us who are exiting out of that belief system to find out that the world doesn't and never did revolve around anything about the JWs. We thought we were in the know, we knew something that no one else in the world grasped...and we felt a pride about that. When you figure out that it was all BS, we realize that we weren't special...we didn't have a leg up on the rest of the world. We were just cult victims.
It's all in the perspective of whoever is afftected/not affected by a certain group/religion.
Similar to other cults/religions. How many people commited suicide under Jim Jones or died following David Koresh? On the grand scheme of world events, those events are just a footnote in history, but to those affected, family, friends and survivors, it is a major deal. Similarly while the JWs aren't much of a topic for people interested in history, those of us who have lived it, it is major event, one that has changed our lives forever.
yes, some of the teachings were very good
I would not go that far..and please feel free to provide examples.
Being able to say, "Yes, there were certainly good people in this organization--and, yes, some of the teachings were very good," in NO WAY suggests that it is a worthwhile organization. ; It isn't. ; Despite any positives, the leadership is deceptive, manipulative and continues to ruin people's lives in order to protect their authority.
Nicely put with the one exception I noted above.
So sure, bashing probably doesn't help, but the venting involved is important IMO. And posters here change in the way they exit and progress as humans all the time. Sometimes a lot more patience is required by those that are beyond most of it and lard knows I am one of them!..
Why do they have to be in 'sole possession' of something good in order to be considered (in some way) good?&I think I was only trying to point out that they as a group and as ministers all of them supposedly live to a higher standard when in fact there are gillions of people that outshine them in every day life. They are not exemplary human beings as a group by far and in my mind do not deserve any special distinction. Just my 2 cents really.
I guess they must feel some serious self-hatred then, if they thought of themselves as being as I just described. For myself, the mind control or brainwashing never set in. Just my personality I guess. But I tried my damdest to conform as a child and adult to the point that I lamented being born with an evil heart. I woke up. But, yes I still feel really terrible and sad (self-hatred) about those I brought into the truth due to my efforts at being a good witness. I saw it ruin otherwise happy families. It ruined my family. These people make up a portion of the 'macro'. A society is only as strong as it's weakest link on all levels. The witnesses are one of those weak links. On the other hand, the society attracts and holds only certain personalities, some of us move on and grow, others are happy to stagnate and be led, it provides something they need to feel purpose in their lives, I think that is the only good side.
"Maybe you mean that JW kids are not encouraged to go to college (though, in my experience, most do)"
Where do you get this idea? Most jw kids most certainly do NOT go to school, even trades or CC.
Most pretend to be interested in pioneering, get married and off to work they go.
My reaction to those who planned for retirement at an early age, 30 to 40 years ago:
you were not listening or you did not believe what they were saying.
P
Logan,
I would say you are right in a sense.
Many former witnesses are very bitter people, and actually do quite a bit of damage to their cause because their over the top rhetoric does not match the reality that most outside the know see. If I had run into calmer heads when I first began to turn a critical eye to the watchtower, I probably wouldn't be in this situation. Pretty much all the info I found was surrounded by hysterics. I always do appreciate your calls for former witnesses to get some perspective and get on with their lives.
I would also agree that if you compare the ills brought on by this relatively small sect compared to other much larger religions throughout histor, or even compared to the various afflictions that plague mankind, the wt pales in comparison.
On the other hand the witnesses do have a bad reputation for breaking up families, talking people out of all sorts of practical actions in their best interests, and causing unecessary deaths through bad medical advice.
What I am getting at is much of the damage done by the jw is below the radar screen. It might not be that the damage they do is so small, but rather it is not noticeable or completely knowable. The images from Jonestown shocked the world. Most barely notice the brief snippet in the local newspaper every few years of the strange person who refused blood for their tragically dead child.
But what if you stacked all the witness kool-aid drinkers through the decades side by side. How many people died refusing vaccinations, organ transplants, and blood transfusions? How many people killed themselves when everyone they ever knew stopped talking to them because they just couldn't quiet the questions in their heads. How many nameless, faceless fathers/mothers/sons/daughters were completely shut out of their loved ones life because they didn't want to surrender their God given mind to another? These are just a few types of victims that have been needlessly created out of the need to support this silly idea of divine appointment. What about all the lost moments, and lost experiences. Those are as irretreivable as all of those misguided dead. To quote a Clive Barker book title, the jws are "Thiefs of Always". Get every victim. Get them all together in one place. Take their picture. I think that impossible, incalcuable image would silence, sicken and haunt us all.
I am glad you got out. More importantly I am glad you have moved on. For me the greatest tragedy would be for my children to have their own free mind taken from them. I know you don't take much to such ideas. But I do wonder how you would feel if you had a child, and they were being stalked and manipulated by this cult. How would you feel then about free thought. I can't help but wonder that.
I guess it could be fun to imagine this stuff in theory. But for so many of us it is to deeply personal, and extremely painful. I just can't bring myself to say they are no big deal in any sense.
Thanks for trying to help us keep some perspective though. Hating them won't do anyone any good.
Take care.
Of course, I don't claim to have the final word on the JWs. I'm just giving my perspective. It's just something to think about.
Check/premises...are you near Chicago? Lunch?
B.
Logan,
That is why I made such a point of how much I appreciate your effort for a balanced perspective. It is sorely lacking! And as I said, I have been personally harmed by that lack of perspective.
I figure the amount of bitterness that folks have is a reflection of the extent they have been harmed. I figure you haven't been harmed to bad. I could be mistaken. Maybe you are just good at rationalizing your experiences.
For me this is a death match. I look at my little 2 year old daughter, and it makes me sick to think of them getting their hooks into her. But we have to not hate our enemy. That is when we turn into them. Again, why I appreciate your perspective.
