by logansrun 61 Replies latest jw friends
The Jehovahs Witlesses are a JOKE to the outside world,a frickin punchline.The are less harmless to government,financial istitutes,and the catholic catholic church than they would like to give themselves credit for.The proof is in the pudding,no new converts or any real message.They are a gimmick driven religion.
They exploit there members from the inside and use there emotions and fears to propel them.I agree,sometimes people willingly do this.
good thread!
I suppose as a group they don't harm society much in anyway and since they don't have their own opinions & can't express them if they did - ja they are little dots. But then in reality in our own micro environments they do cause damage - they split up families. They harm from the inside.
Logan, on a 'Macro' level none of our endeavors ultimately matter. You cant live life thinking that way. The WT had a bad effect on the people here so it matters in their 'micro' lives. To be honest, I dont really care about terrorism that you listed in the sense that it is extemely unlikely to touch me personally.
LR,
Of what relevance to the issue of mental illness among Jehovah's Witnesses addressed by Dr. Bergman's book are his views on creationism and intelligent design? Rather than give us this BS general bashing of Dr. Bergman, maybe you can cite some specifics? This unsupported bashing of Dr. Bergman reeks of the actions of a Watchtower apologist. Your unsupported bashing of Dr. Bergman leaves little for anyone to be "impressed" with in your posts.
On a macro level, the Witnesses & Jonestown are pretty harmless
Jehovah's Witnesses 'r Jonestown without the kool-aid & Charlie Manson without the look --------- Watchtower Whistleblower: Danny Haszard Bangor Maine Jehovah's Witnesses are the 'perfect storm' of deception-in a word they are the cult of Innuendo
Many times in this forum I've tried to present what I feel has been a balanced perspective regarding this organization. For instance, I dislike it when I read posts that say things like, "They're all so unloving. None of them really cares." (Insert your own sweeping generalization.) I've also tried to be balanced in admitting that there are some things I can be grateful for, having been raised as a JW. While there are no guarantees, the group encourages kids to be involved in activities associated with the congregation and family. As Tom Cabeen once told me, 'I was protected from a lot of bad things. A lot of kids I grew up with got involved in crime and drugs.' And, although I understand others may have had different experiences, personally I feel I was brought up in an environment quite free of racism. I appreciate not being saddled with negative racial stereotypes--as so many non-JWs are. Loganrun has also mentioned some fairly positive things about the organization.
But, of all the comments I've read in this thread, the one Pole made hits me the strongest...
As a person coming from a post-totalitarian state I get anxious when hearing the "macro" argument. It smacks of cynical totalitarianism.
Using the "macro level" argument I can argue that the David Korash cult was much less harmful than the WTS.
Using this macro vs. micro level argument I can also state that sex slave traders and mafia hitmen are no serious threat to society "on the macro level." A very, very small percentage of human beings in society will ever actually be exposed to the dangers they pose. Now before you go saying something like, "It's absurd to compare JWs to such people," let me remind you of your premise:
So, when it comes to greater society -- which, of course, is far and away mostly people who have never been JWs -- the Witnesses pose no real threat at all... It's only on the micro-level -- on current JWs and ex-JWs -- that the Watcthower can have a negative effect.
The great majority of all persons probably do not personally know a person kidnapped into sex slavery--nor do they know anyone murdered by a mafia hitman. So "it's only on a micro-level" that they can have a negative effect.
And, even then, I sometimes wonder where some JWs would be if they didn't have a worldwide organization telling them how to sneeze. Some people are better off in a cult.
I'm sure the families involved in organized crime feel the same way. Aren't many of them in families that are loving and normal in many ways. Don't you think such individuals ever do much good for those around them? And I can guarantee you many of them feel they're "better off."
If you don't like my comparisons, try and remember some of yours. Saying something like, 'Well at least they're not trained assassins" is something you can say about a great number of evil people. Yes, if you want to take things to "the macro level" the JWs are pretty insignificant. But regardless of any of the things you and I can admit might have been positive, I am also faced with the fact that they are guilty of gross deception and manipulation--while representing themselves as the sole messengers of God on earth. Knowing that they will happily rip families and friendships apart in order to maintain their authority makes them pretty evil in my book. And this has not happened to, as you put it, just "a few families."
confession
Confession, your arguments make perfect sense. What is wrong with saying that mafia hitment and sex slave traders have little effect on the macro level? They don't. You touch on the greatest gripe I have, though--generalizations. Most sentences (noticed I said "most" lol) that starts with "all ______" are "____" are usually a narrowly-focused opinion based on emotional prejudices that blind their adherents to much truth. When we get to the basics, many here say the Witnesses are a mind controlling cult. However, I would venture to say there exist as many or more ex-JW as JW folks. We can see then, that saying they're a mind-controlling cult would be a bit simplistic, as so many leave--their minds obviously weren't controlled.
My opinion of JW's is that they do perform some good and some bad like any religion. However, being out of the mainstream with an eliteist attitude, they tend to draw some wierd ones from the general population.
One thing that gets me is the downright hatred for JW's I see so much of here. If we were to listen to these folks, JWs are a group that have no individuality, cannot think through anything, cannot express opinons, disown their young after raping them, and are generally stupid. Ironically, nearly all who express such opinons were once JW's themselves. I guess they must feel some serious self-hatred then, if they thought of themselves as being as I just described.
Why is it so hard for some of you to even admit that the there are some genuine good aspects to being a JW and that some JWs can indeed be happy? I think I know why. Because you got burned. Because you're an overgeneralizer. Because that's the fucked up nature of a human being.
Why don't you give me a list of things specific to being a JW that cannot be found outside their own closed system? Then we can discuss what is genuine in terms of as you say being human, or a "good" human for that matter. Sure some JWs can be happy as individuals, but when you have a large group, and I would say the 6 million number is good enough, that takes no responsibility for their actions then that is a detriment to society. I would also like to point out their dealings in Brooklyn. The DUMBO fight involving the revitalization of that area and the WTBTS. Are they helping their community by building what is essentially another cloister for Bethelites? Will it be open to the public or benefit the citizens of NYC? Not one bit!
