Watchtower Stock Gamblers?

by ros 21 Replies latest jw friends

  • ros
    ros

    It was recently pointed out in another thread, the business mode of certain organizations to persuade people who have accrued a substantial estate to turn their holdings over to the organization in return for which the organization agrees to support them with a certain agreed income for the remainder of their life. The advantage for the organization comes with investing the money in stock or bond funds for an anticipated higher return than they expect to pay to the invester/doner, as well as getting the whole thing after the investor dies without any inheritance penalty. (Is this a fair statement of the issue?)

    The discussion was prompted by the Watchtower Society’s (now called “Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses--CCJW) practice for years past to sway its members who have a substantial estate to turn possession of it over to the Society, as described above. (I knew the WTS enticed people to designate the WTS as heir for inheritance, but I didn’t know about this practice.) In case of the JWs, an added incentive is the premise that they are in effect making Jehovah God their heir. What a privilege! Not to mention that: 1) no doubt the time is so short that it will not significantly deprive their children or other heirs; 2) a little added faithfulness for surviving Armageddon, which may be expected to occur before the doners would even die; or at least give some added confidence of being resurrected in the new world if they should happen to pass on a little before the end.

    The points made in the other thread, as I understood it, was: 1) that the Watchtower organization was/is not doing anything extraordinary in soliciting these inheritances, away from the would-be heirs, to their own interests; and 2) there is nothing unusual about an organization investing its money in the stock marker--lots of organizations do it.

    So, there are two issues of question here:
    1) In principal, is it ethical for an organization, much less one claiming to be God’s own, to sway people to sign over their estates to the organization instead of letting it go to the otherwise rightful heirs?
    2) Is there anything wrong with an organization investing money in the stock market to make a profit?

    To question number one: I ros think it is unethical and unprincipled.

    To question number two: Normally, one could say there is nothing wrong with an organization investing its money in stock, and I could agree that would be true for the Watchtower organization as well, if not for one little thing--their definition of “gambling” and how it relates to “greed” (scripturally a disfellowshipping issue).

    From what they have published, gambling is THE most obvious characteristic of “greed”. This point has come up in discussion when I have asked why JWs don’t get disfellowshipped for greed or gluttony, yet get DF’d for all kinds of others things not mentioned in the Bible (e.g., “getting ahead of Jehovah’s organization”, “loose conduct”, “conduct unbecoming a Christian”, “apostasy”, etc.). The usual reply is something like “greed is hard to define”.
    Then the question is: 1) How do you define “loose conduct”, and 2) if “greed” is hard to define, why did Paul instruct that as being one of the things Christians should be put out of the congregation for”?

    Refer to the “Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock” elders manual and look up “greed” in the index. It gives two references. The first on page 95 under a discussion of what conduct is not to be tolerated in congregations, and it is defined: Greed -- gambling, extortion.
    On page 136: “Christians should avoid gambling in all its various forms, including lotteries. . . . If a person makes a practice of gambling and after repeated counsel unrepentantly pursues a course of greediness he could be disfellowshipped from the Christian congregation. (Ref.: WT 9/1/80 pp 29-30; WT 10/1/72 pp.593-4)

    QUESTION: How is investing in stock not gambling? Granted the odds are generally a little better than Las Vegas slot machines, but it is nevertheless a gamble!! Investment counselors even rank investors as to whether they are higher risk-takers, moderate, or low-risk-takers. The potential for loss is well-known and has, in essence, even been heralded in the Watchtower’s own publications, in fact predicted to crash is predicted as a sign of the end. (Remember YouKnow?) Examples:

    *** w75 1/15 36 A Crime-Free World-How Much Do You Really Want It? ***
    Actually, as a study on crime reveals, the cost in money and property lost to muggers and burglars is "trivial compared to the millions involved in the crimes of fraud and embezzlement." Just one multimillion-dollar-stock-market swindle can steal far more than tens of thousands of ordinary burglaries.

    *** w89 7/15 30 Questions From Readers ***
    While some claim that buying a lottery ticket is simple, low-cost entertainment, there is no denying the greed factor. People buy lottery tickets hoping to win a lot of money. This certainly runs in the face of divine counsel against greediness, which can be such a serious vice that it can prevent a person from 'inheriting God's kingdom.' Hence, if a Christian manifested persistent greed by gambling, he could be excluded from the congregation. (1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:10) The Bible says: "An inheritance is being got by greed at first, but its own future will not be blessed." (Proverbs 20:21) If a Christian felt any impulse to 'take a chance' in a lottery, he should think seriously about the greed on which the lottery is based. Ephesians 5:3 says that 'greediness should not even be mentioned among us,' much less given in to by a Christian.
    The largest portion of lottery players are usually found in poor communities. So even if the cost of a ticket is small, funds are being diverted that ought to go toward genuine family needs--more food, adequate clothing, improved medical care. A person who claims to be a Christian but neglects such family needs "is worse than a person without faith."-1 Timothy 5:8.
    Even if the cost of a lottery ticket would not significantly harm someone's personal or family finances, that does not mean that others are not harmed. Why so? Because almost anyone buying a lottery ticket would like to win. / LOL!!! / From where would his prize money come? If his ticket cost ten pesos and the prize is a million pesos, that means that he takes the ticket money from a hundred thousand other people. Does that harmonize with God's counsel against coveting others' valuables? (Deuteronomy 5:21) In fact, his prize will involve money taken from many more people, for far more than a hundred thousand tickets will have to be sold. A goodly amount of ticket money must go for administrative costs, as well as some to the charitable purpose that is trumpeted as the rationale for the lottery. So even if a person can afford the ten pesos for his own ticket, what about vast numbers of others? Moreover, his winning will probably be publicized, moving many to begin playing the lottery or buying more tickets, even if they cannot afford this.
    There is also no denying that bound up with the lottery is the dream of winning money without working for it.

    *** w89 7/15 30 Questions From Readers ***
    While some claim that buying a lottery ticket is simple, low-cost entertainment, there is no denying the greed factor. People buy lottery tickets hoping to win a lot of money. This certainly runs in the face of divine counsel against greediness, which can be such a serious vice that it can prevent a person from 'inheriting God's kingdom.' Hence, if a Christian manifested persistent greed by gambling, he could be excluded from the congregation. (1 Corinthians 5:11; 6:10) The Bible says: "An inheritance is being got by greed at first, but its own future will not be blessed." (Proverbs 20:21) If a Christian felt any impulse to 'take a chance' in a lottery, he should think seriously about the greed on which the lottery is based. Ephesians 5:3 says that 'greediness should not even be mentioned among us,' much less given in to by a Christian.

    *** w88 12/15 7 Insight on the News ***
    Should a religious leader who claims to be a follower of Christ promote gambling? Hardly! Gambling in any form appeals to one of the worst qualities in humans--greed. Those who promote it encourage people to believe that it is right to profit from the losses of others. Yet, God's inspired Word flatly states that greedy persons will not inherit God's Kingdom.-1 Corinthians 6:9, 10; Ephesians 4:19; 5:3.

    *** w80 9/1 29 Questions from Readers ***
    Of course, greed can be manifest in many ways. A person might show excessive greed in his eating, becoming a glutton. Or, greedy excess in drinking might make him a drunkard. (Titus 1:12, 13; Prov. 23:20; 1 Tim. 3:3) However, eating is a normal, needed aspect of life. And even the enjoyment that some get from moderate amounts of alcoholic drinks involves a natural process, consuming as part of the daily fluid intake a beverage that the body can "burn" as fuel. So "greed" is not as frequently or easily connected with these things as with gambling.
    The greed of gambling is a prime cause of much of the crime and violence associated with serious gambling operations.

    *** w93 2/15 10 What Is Wrong With the Love of Money? ***
    Another reason the love of money is so dangerous is that human governments have proved unable to cooperate fully or ensure that money retains an internationally stable value; nor have they been able to prevent recessions, depressions, and stock-market crashes.

    *** w92 8/15 27 Have You Counted the Cost? ***
    In our time, inflation, stock-market declines, bank failures, and so forth, have caused the ruin of many who put their trust solely in material riches.

    *** w90 10/1 18 Keep Seeking the Kingdom and God's Righteousness ***
    Or in these modern times of economic instability, can inflation shrink its buying power or can stock-market crashes wipe it out?

    Recognizing what they have said about the stock market, and even looking to it as one of the signs for the end, isn’t it a little strange that they would risk their money and that of their members, when they admit it can crash--“real soon”? And isn’t the reason for investing in stock what the WTS has defined as “greed”?

  • Maximus
    Maximus

    What hurts me, Ros, is the little old folks with crumpled $1 and $5 bills they could hardly spare, putting them in a contribution box for "the preaching work." Paying/donating for literature to fulfill a misguided application of Jesus' charge to "preach." It's expensive these days.

    For years even the fact of investing money in the market was a dark secret, and many oldtimers will not believe it.

    I'll just watch this develop. Thanks for being persistent.

    Max

  • ros
    ros

    That, too, Max--that, too. (I suppose they justify it with "widow's mite".) But it's "greeed"! [>:)]

  • larc
    larc

    Ros,

    It seems to me that the Society never tied the stock market and investing with gambling or greed. When I was in the religion, it was part of the oral tradition that "playing the stock market" was wrong. However, I can't find anything in print that directly says that.

    In a personal communication with Ray Franz, I expressed my idea that stock investing was wrong, according to the Society. He wrote to me that they didn't state that, and in fact, were investing funds when he was at Bethel.

    In your quotes above, it seems to me that they point out the dangers of the market, another sign of the times I suppose. They also point out the playing the lottery, clearly, is gambling.

    Is investing in stocks a form of gambling? It depends how it is done. Buying puts or selling calls is gambling. Buying stocks in good quality companies is not, in my opinion.

  • zev
    zev

    larc said:

    oral tradition


    i never thought of it quite like that, but that IS what it is isn't it? oral tradition. interesting choice of words.

    -August 8th, 2001 - The day the lambs ROARED
    __
    Zev
    The greatest consistancy of the WTBTS is their INconsistancy.

  • VM44
    VM44

    Stock investing in solid companies is not gambling....but "investing" in
    risky things like derivatives is.

    Orange County (California) went bankrupt a few years ago because the
    County Tax collector invested heavily in so-called derivatives. The County
    experienced big time losses, and the nature of derivatives is such that
    they did not know where money went. (other than it was gone!)

    --VM44

  • larc
    larc

    I brought this up to the top, in case Ros had missed my conclusions. I was not sure if this clarified or muddied the waters on this issue.

  • blondie
    blondie

    I think there was something in the WT publications in 2000 or 2001 on this saying it was not considered gambling by the WTS now. Good thing, since they invest themselves.

    http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/10/8a/article_01.htm

  • LDH
    LDH

    In case ya'll didn't know, my sister da'd herself over gambling. Not because she believed it was 'OK' to do, but because the elders couldn't show her where it was wrong.

    She is a successful single woman with a restaurant, and most of them were living in double wides. So of course, when they couseled her about gambling and said stupid crap like "You never win" she said "I win all the time".

    Of course, their next question was <"How much do you win?"

    "Last time it was around $50,000."

    Tempers immediately started to flare. There was no question, she was being forced to meet with them over jealousy, not whether gambling was right or wrong.

    A good stock picker can only make an educated guess.
    A good gambler can predict the next card being drawn.

    No difference.

    Lisa

  • Patriot
    Patriot

    Ros,

    "Exodus" just left on vacation for 2 weeks but he has a site on homestead somthing in which he scanned the very hard to come by Watchower investment guide. He put it up on an old post on H20 I booked marked it but I changed browsers and am trying to find the address.

    But you have to read this info. Its a book thats only given to certain P.O.'s of Congo. that have bro's and sis's that express interest in making some type of donation. It also shows how they will invest your money and actually cut you a check for the profits monthly if you want. It even says you can use it for your childs schooling!! (the returns)

    Again Exodus has the book in his possesion (he is still a P.O. although they're on to him) and has scanned it. If I find the site I'll post it.

    Maverick

    Don't go where the path leads.....go where there is no path and leave a trail.

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