A Libation To The Gods..

by Englishman 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    We've just returned from the wedding of our first born son, Simon, to Tania. It was great, I shall post some pics in a few days.

    However, following the wedding, I had a brief telephone conversation with my JW Mum who asked me if anyone had noticed that she had not joined in any of the toasts to the Bride and Groom. I just grunted and tried to change the subject., However, she persisted and said that we were asking for the blessing of pagan gods when we had raised our glasses in a toast. Umm..not so, Mother, I was toasting Simon & Tania, never had any pagan gods in mind. Ah..but, she persisted, the origins of toasting go back thousands of years and even if you weren't aware of it you were asking the gods to protect the happy couple blah blah blah.. Rubbish Mother! I knew what was in my mind when I raised my glass and you can't tell me that I was asking the gods for anything when I know that I wasn't...where do you get these daft ideas from?

    Anyway, the conversation ground to halt in the usual unsatisfactory way that it tends to do when you're trying to be rational to a JW infected mind.

    But what is with these people with their toasting ban, their Christmas ban and their birthday ban?

    Just because something used to be associated with something, why do they assume it's always going to be associated with it? Don't these people ever move on. And where do you draw the line of association with a thing or a custom? Just because something meant something thousands of years ago, it doesn't follow that the it means the same thing now, does it?

    At this rate, JW's soon won't be allowed to bang a nail in the wall without being accused of recreating Jesus' death.

    They're barmy. Bloody barmy, the lot of 'em.

    Englishman.

  • stopthepain
    stopthepain

    Englishman,isn't it strange,almost funny,how a brainwashed jw robot can try to sap the joy out of the most joyuos occasion?All the positives of your sons marriage,trivialized by a "pagan toast".They truly strain out the gnat and gulp down the camel.

    Any way,congrats on YOUR families hapiness,and yes,as you english say,they ar blarmy.

    STP

  • Ténébreux
    Ténébreux

    Round these parts, if you say "good luck" you get a lecture on how you have just committed idolatry by invoking the god of Good Luck mentioned in Isaiah 65:11

  • tijkmo
    tijkmo

    does your mum wear a wedding ring

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Origins? Look up Passover. In the United States you can't slaughter an animal to make a movie, why can you slaughter an animal to make a religion?

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    If those gods were real, she might have a point. Even the wt doesn't think they are.

    Congrats about your son.

    S

  • MegaDude
    MegaDude


    This is a good way to attempt to open the sealed can that is the JW mind.

    JWs cherry pick which pagan customs they engage in and which ones they reject. Toasting may have pagan origins. I really don't know, but if so they have long since dissappeared. When JWs mention this sort of stuff to me I remind them they engage in customs of pagan origin. One is the wearing of wedding rings. But one of my favorites is to remind them that the days of the week and the names of the month are named in honor of pagan gods. That is their origin. For example, Saturday is named in honor of the god Saturn. Then you can ask the hapless dub, "Why do you still honor pagan gods by using these names?" The JW will sputter out some reason why it is okay. Something along the lines of just using the names of the days of the week is not honoring pagan gods, that's just their commonly accepted name. To which you respond, "That's the same thing about toasts. Could you find me one person at the wedding party who thought he was honoring a pagan god? Or is it like you said, just a commonly accepted way of joining in the bride and groom's happiness?" It's always good to put in the frame of a question so it coaxes their brain to think.

    As an aside, the same nut at Bethel during Rutherford's administration who railed against blood transfusions actually tried to get the JWs to adopt a new "theocratic" calendar with new names for the days of the week and month. I believe you can see the calendar in Jim Penton's book "Apocalypse Delayed." Rutherford ultimately rejected the idea.

    Days of the week:

    The First Day: Sunday was named after the Sun god.

    The second Day: Monday was named after the moon goddess.

    The Third Day: Tuesday was named after the god Tyr.

    The Fourth Day: Wednesday was named after the god Odin.

    The Fifth Day: Thursday was named after the god Thor.

    The Sixth Day: Friday was named after the goddess Frigga.

    The Seventh Day: Saturday was named after the god Saturn.


    Months:

    JANUARY:

    Named for Janus, the Roman mighty one of portals and patron of beginnings and endings, to whom this month was sacred. He is shown as having two faces, one in front, the other at the back of his head, supposedly to symbolize his powers.

    FEBRUARY:

    This name is derived from Februa, a Roman festival of purification. It was originally the month of expiation.

    MARCH:

    It is named for Mars, the Roman mighty one of war.

    APRIL:

    This name comes from the Latin APRILIS, indicating a time of Fertility. It was believed that this month is the month when the earth was supposed to open up for the plants to grow.

    MAY:

    This month was named for Maia, the Roman female deity of growth or increase.

    JUNE:

    This name is sometimes attributed to June, the female mighty one of the marriage, the wife of Jupiter in Roman mythology. She was also called the "Queen of heaven" and " Queen of mighty ones." The name of this month is also attributed to Junius Brutus, but originally it most probably referred to the month in which crops grow to ripeness.

    JULY:

    Named for the Roman emperor Julius Caesar, this is the seventh month of the Gregorian year.

    AUGUST:

    Named for Octavius Augustus Caesar, emperor of Rome; the name was originally from augure, which means, "to increase."

    SEPTEMBER:

    This name is derived from the Latin septem, meaning "seven."

    OCTOBER

    This name comes from the Latin root octo, meaning "eight."

    NOVEMBER:

    This name is derived from Latin novem, meaning "ninth."

    DECEMBER:

    This name is derived from the Latin decem, meaning "ten."

  • Legolas
    Legolas
    At this rate, JW's soon won't be allowed to bang a nail in the wall without being accused of recreating Jesus' death.

    That is funny...There was a poster that brought up a good point the other day saying that Jesus didn't get baptized till he was 30 so why do the JW baptize kids?........I thought that was excellent!.....I'll have to ask someone that someday. They are so dogmatic about sooooooooo many other things!!!

  • Englishman
    Englishman

    tijkmo said:

    does your mum wear a wedding ring

    Excellent, thank you. I looked up the Questions from Readers on this, and found one line that answers all matters regarding so-called pagan customs!

    Here ya go:

    >>>>>>•

    Is it proper for a Christian to wear a wedding ring?—Greece.

    Many sincere Christians have asked this question out of a desire to avoid any custom of which God might disapprove. Some of the questioners know that Catholic prelate John H. Newman wrote: "The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, . . . sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison, are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church." (An Essay on the Development of the Christian Doctrine, 1878) While the facts prove that many of the current religious practices Newman lists definitely were adopted from pagan worship, is that true of the wedding ring?

    Actually there are conflicting ideas as to the origin of the wedding ring. Let us give a few examples: "Originally . . . the ring was a fetter, used to bind the captive bride." (For Richer, for Poorer) "The ring is a relatively modern substitute for the gold coin or other article of value with which a man literally purchased his wife from her father." (The Jewish Wedding Book) "The wedding ring is supposed to be of Roman origin, and to have sprung from the ancient custom of using rings in making agreements." (American Cyclopædia) "Various explanations have been given of the connection of the ring with marriage. It would appear that wedding-rings were worn by the Jews prior to Christian times."—The International Cyclopaedia.

    It is thus seen that the precise origin of the wedding ring is uncertain. Even if it were a fact that pagans first used wedding rings, would that rule such out for Christians? Not necessarily. Many of today’s articles of clothing and aspects of life originated in pagan lands. The present time divisions of hours, minutes and seconds are based on an early Babylonian system. Yet, there is no objection to a Christian’s using these time divisions, for one’s doing so does not involve carrying on false religious practices.

    Of course, our concern is greater as regards the use of wedding rings, since this relates, not to minor secular matters, but to the marriage relationship, which the Christian rightly views as sacred before God. Really, the question is not so much whether wedding rings were first used by pagans but whether they were originally used as part of false religious practices and still retain such religious significance. As has been shown, the historical evidence does not allow for any definite conclusion on this. What does the Bible say about the use of rings?

    The Bible shows that some of God’s servants in the past wore rings, even ones that had special meaning attached to them. Wearing a signet ring could indicate that one had received authority to act in behalf of the ruler who owned it. (Gen. 41:42; Num. 31:50; Esther 8:2, 8; Job 42:11, 12; Luke 15:22) So, while wedding rings are not mentioned, these true worshipers clearly did not scruple against using rings for more than mere adornment.

    Some persons say that a wedding ring represents one’s unending love and devotion in marriage. The increasing divorce rate in many lands where married persons usually wear a wedding ring proves that this meaning is more imagined than real. Nonetheless, for the majority of persons, including Christians, in lands where wedding rings are common, the ring is an outward indication that the wearer is a married person. In other localities the same point is shown in a different way, such as by a woman’s wearing a certain style of clothing.

    Of course, a wedding ring is by no means a Christian requirement. One Christian might decide not to wear a wedding ring, because of conscience, personal taste, cost, local custom, or some other reason. Yet another Christian might decide to indicate his married status by means of a wedding ring. Hence, in the final analysis the decision is a personal one, to be made in accord with the conscientious views one holds.<<<<<<<<

    Great! If it no longer contains the same religious significance it's OK.

    Englishman.

  • luna2
    luna2

    Congratulations to your son and his new wife! That's wonderful.

    Boo hiss on your mom's lecture about the evils of making toasts. Cool how she turned the conversation right to the fact that she wasn't participating in such a pagan ritual. *sigh* I like the idea of turning it around on her and giving her grief for wearing a wedding ring (if she does)...but I'm sure the rationale she will use is that if the all-knowing WTS says it's okay, then it must be.

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