Link between BTG and Roman empire seeking information (page 2)

It may have been the opinion of some early Christians that Rome was Babylon the Great but that is not an adequate explanation. They admittedly get into trouble when they try to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great.

As far as I can tell, Rome fits the context perfectly. I don't see the problem you say there is in "trying to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great". As scholars generally agree, the woman represents the city itself -- personified through its guardian deity Roma (depicted as sitting on the seven hills of Rome), who was worshipped as a goddess in the very same cities in Asia Minor where Revelation was addressed to. The Beast however represents the city's political leadership -- Emperor Caesar. Thus, 17:10 interprets the Beast's seven heads as referring to a succession of kings. Most importantly, the passage gives a dual interpretation of the Beast itself: the Beast represents "the eighth [king] and one of the seven, and he is going to his destruction" (v. 11). It is generally believed that this passage (and the other references to the Beast in ch. 13-14) is dependent on the Nero redivivus myth of the late first century: the idea attested elsewhere in Classical and Jewish-Christian sources, that Nero did not really die but fled to Parthia and would return to Rome with the Parthian army to finish destroying the city (recall that he was blamed for starting the fire that destroyed part of the city) as its new emperor. Another version is that Nero would be resurrected in Parthia as this terrible new tyrant. Thus, the Beast is "one of the seven" (one of the preceding emperors, e.g. Nero) and at the same time an "eighth" king (v. 11). Similarly, one of the heads of the Beast (=Nero) had a "fatal wound" but has been healed (13:3), the Beast had a statue that people were required to worship (= the Emperor cult, which presented the Emperor as a living god and people were required to give offerings to his image) in 13:15, and the Beast had a personal name and the "number of the name" was 666 (NERON KAISAR "Nero Caesar" in numerical values) in v. 18. This beast then would "turn against the prostitute and strip off her clothes and leave her naked" (17:16), an allusion to the future destruction of Rome at the hands of Nero redivivus.

As for the "ten horns", although the author is dependent on Daniel 7:24 and its similar motif of the "ten horns", it is clear that the author did not have the same interpretation in mind; indeed, the author used the motif of the seven heads to indicate the succession of kings -- not the horns. Instead, the author himself gives his interpretation: "The ten horns are ten kings who have not yet been given their royal power but will have royal authority only for a single hour and in association with the Beast. They are all of one mind in putting their strength and their powers at the Beast's disposal" (Revelation 17:12-13). These are the same as "all the kings of the world" who are gathered for war at Har-Mageddon in 16:14-16, in particular the "kings of the East" -- the dreaded Parthian kings -- who come from beyond "the great river Euphrates" in 16:12-13. As 17:14 states, these kings will "go to war against the Lamb but the Lamb is the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings and will defeat them". Thus, the Beast is the king with "worldwide authority" -- the 8th king who was also the same as one of the prior 7 kings -- who will come with the kings of East and indeed, with "all the kings of the earth" (his vassal kings, ruling over parts of the Roman Empire), to make war against the Lamb at Har-Hageddon. This is not a picture of a succession of world empires (as the WTS puts it), it is pretty close to the Nero redivivus scenario of the end of the world.

See also:

"I am entering on the history of a period rich in disasters, frightful in its wars, torn by civil strife, and even in peace full of horrors. Four emperors perished by the sword. There were three civil wars; there were more with foreign enemies; there were often wars that had both characters at once. There was success in the East, and disaster in the West. There were disturbances in Illyricum; Gaul wavered in its allegiance; Britain was thoroughly subdued and immediately abandoned; the tribes of the Suevi and the Sarmatae rose in concert against us; the Dacians had the glory of inflicting as well as suffering defeat; the armies of Parthia were all but set in motion by the cheat of a counterfeit Nero. Now too Italy was prostrated by disasters either entirely novel, or that recurred only after a long succession of ages" (Tacitus, History 1.2).

"About this time Achaia and Asia Minor were terrified by a false report that Nero was at hand. Various rumours were current about his death; and so there were many who pretended and believed that he was still alive. The adventures and enterprises of the other pretenders I shall relate in the regular course of my work. The pretender in this case was a slave from Pontus, or, according to some accounts, a freedman from Italy, a skilful harp-player and singer, accomplishments, which, added to a resemblance in the face, gave a very deceptive plausibility to his pretensions....Thence the alarm spread far and wide, and many roused themselves at the well-known name, eager for change, and detesting the present state of things. The report was daily gaining credit when an accident put an end to it. Galba had entrusted the government of Galatia and Pamphylia to Calpurnius Asprenas. Two triremes from the fleet of Misenum were given him to pursue the adventurer: with these he reached the island of Cythnus. Persons were found to summon the captains in the name of Nero. The pretender himself, assuming a studied appearance of sorrow, and appealing to their fidelity as old soldiers of his own, besought them to land him in Egypt or Syria. The captains, perhaps wavering, perhaps intending to deceive, declared that they must address their soldiers, and that they would return when the minds of all had been prepared. Everything, however, was faithfully reported to Asprenas, and at his bidding the ship was boarded and taken, and the man, whoever he was, killed. The body, in which the eyes, the hair, and the savage countenance, were remarkable features, was conveyed to Asia, and thence to Rome" (Tacitus, History 2.8).

"He met his death in the thirty-second year of his age, on the anniversary of the murder of Octavia, and such was the public rejoicing that the people put on liberty-caps and ran about all at city. Yet there were some who for a long time decorated his tomb with spring and summer flowers, and now produced his statues on the rostra in the fringed toga, and now his edicts, as if he were still alive and would shortly return and deal destruction to his enemies. Nay more, Vologaesus, king of the Parthians, when he sent envoys to the senate to renew his alliance, earnestly begged this too, that honour be paid to the memory of Nero. In fact, twenty years later, when I was a young man, a person of obscure origin appeared, who gave out that he was Nero, and the name was still in such favour with the Parthians that they supported him vigorously and surrendered him with great reluctance" (Suetonius, Nero 57).

"For so far as the rest of his [Nero's] subjects were concerned, there was nothing to prevent his continuing to be emperor for all time, seeing that even now everybody wishes he were still alive. And the great majority do believe that he is, although in a certain sense he has died not once but often along with those who had been firmly convinced that he was still alive" (Dio Chrysostom, Oratio 21.10; written c. AD 88).

"Rome will also rule over Egypt, guiding it toward a single goal, then indeed the most great kingdom of the immortal king will become manifest over men...Then implacable wrath will fall upon Latin men, three will destroy Rome with piteous fate....Alas, wretched one, when will that day come, and the judgment of the great king immortal God? Yet, for the present, be founded, cities, and all be embellished with temples and stadia, markets and golden silver and stone statues so that you may come to the bitter day...Then Beliar will come from the Sebastenoi [i.e. from the line of Augustus Caesar], and he will raise up the height of mountains, he will raise the sea, and he will raise up the dead, and perform many signs for men" (Sibylline Oracle 3:46-67).

"Then a great king will flee from Italy like a runaway slave unseen and unheard over the channel of the Euphrates, when he dares to incur a materal curse for repulsive murder [i.e. Nero] and many other things, confidently, with wicked hand. When he runs away, beyond the Parthian land, many will bloody the ground for the throne of Rome. A leader of Rome will come to Syria who will burn the Temple of Jerusalem with fire, at the same time slaughter many men and destroy the great land of the Jews with its broad roads...Then the strife of war being aroused will come to the West, and the fugitive from Rome will also come, brandishing a great spear, having crossed the Euphrates with many myrids. Wretched Antioch, they will no longer call you a city ... Great wealth will come to Asia, which Rome itself once plundered and deposited in her house of many possessions. She will then pay back twice as much and more to Asia, and then there will be a surfeit of war" (Sibylline Oracle 4.119-148).

"One who has fifty as an initial [i.e. Nero, N=50 in gematria; compare the gematria in 666 = NERON KAISAR] will be commander, a terrible snake, breathing out grievous war, who one day will lay hands on his own family and slay them, and throw everything into confusion, athlete, charioteer, murderer, one who dares ten thousand things. He will also cut the mountain between two seas and defile it with gore. But even when he disappears he will be destructive. Then he will return declaring himself equal to God. But he will prove that he is not...The one who obtained the land of the Persians will fight, and killing every man he will destroy all life so that a one-third portion will remain for mortals. He himself will rush in with a light bound for the West, besieging the entire land, laying it all waste...The poets will bewail thrice-wretched Greece when a great king of great Rome, a godlike man from Italy, will cut the ridge of the isthmus. Him, they say, Zeus himself begot and lady Hera. Playing at theatricals with honey-sweet songs rendered with melodious voice, he will destroy many men, and his wretched mother. He will flee from Babylon [i.e. Rome], a terrible and shameless prince whom all mortals and noble men despise...He will come to the Medes and the Persians, those whom he first desired and to whom he gave glory....Effeminate and unjust, evil city, ill-fated above all. Alas, city of Latin land, unclean in all things, maenad, rejoicing in vipers, as a widow you sit by the banks, and the river Tiber will weep for you, its consort...A man who is a matricide will come from the ends of the earth in flight and devising penetrating schemes in his mind. He will destroy every land and conquer all and consider all things more widely than all men. He will immediately seize the one because of whom he himself perished [i.e. attacks Rome]...There will come upon men a great war from the West, blood will flow up to the bank of deep-eddying rivers...Woe to you Babylon, of golden throne and golden sandal. For many years you were the sole kingdom ruling over the world. You who were formerly great and universal, you will no longer lie on golden mountains and streams of the Euphrates [i.e. the Tiber]. You will spread out flat by the turmoil of an earthquake. Terrible Parthians made you shake all over... In the last time, one day the sea will be dry and ships will then no longer sail to Italy" (Sibylline Oracle 5.28-34, 101-105, 167-179, 434-448).

"One day, the people will say, 'Your great power, o city, will fall,' knowing that the fated evil day is immediately at hand. Then fathers and infant children will mourn together, regarding your most piteous fate. Mournful, they will raise dirges by the banks of the Tiber....When the blazing matricidal exile returns from the ends of the earth, he will give these things to all and award great wealth to Asia. Then you will mourn, doffing the garment of leaders, with its proud purple border, and wearing a garment of mourning. O proud queen, offspring of Latin Rome. No longer will you have the fame of your pride...He himself will destroy the overbearing threat of the Romans. For the empire of Rome, which then flourished, has perished, the ancient queen over the surrounding cities.... Celebrate, if you wish, the man of secret birth, riding a Trojan chariot from the land of Asia with a spirit of fire. But when he cuts through the isthmus glancing about, going against everyone, having crossed the sea, then dark blood will pursue the great beast" (Sibylline Oracle 8.60-64, 70-76, 140-157).

"Beliar will descend, the great angel, the king of this world, which he has ruled over since it has existed. He will descend from the firmament in the form of a man, a king of iniquity, a murderer of his mother, this is the king of this world, and will persecute the plant of the twelve apostles of the Beloved will have planted; some of the twelve will be givne into his hand. This angel, Beliar, will come in the form of that king, and with him will come all the powers of this world, and they will obey him in every wish...And the power of his miracles will be in every city and district, and he will set up his image before him in every city. And he will rule for three years and seven months and twenty-seven days....Then the Lord will come with his angels and the hosts of the saints from the seventh heaven, with the glory of the seventh heaven, and will drag Beliar and his hosts also into Gehenna" (Ascension of Isaiah 4:2-14).

Leolia:

5) The angel then provides a second interpretation of the seven heads of the beast in Revelation 17:10, claiming that they represent seven kings. Of these, five were described as fallen, one was currently ruling, the seventh was to come for a short while, and an eighth (corresponding to the figure of Nero redivivus) was to follow the seven. Attempts to identify these kings with historical Roman emperors has proven to be notoriously difficult. This is because there was some disagreement over who was the first emperor (e.g. Suetonius and Josephus regarded Julius Caesar as the first emperor, while Tacitus and Vergil regarded Augustus as the first emperor), and whether the three short-lived emperors of AD 68-69 (Galba, Otho, and Vitellius) count or not. Sybilline Oracles 5:35 and Josephus, Jewish War 4.491-99 mentioned Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, but Suetonius (Vespasian, 1) terms the three emperors' reigns as the "rebellion of the three princes" (rebellio trium principum), suggesting that their brief tenure were mere interregna between the reigns of legitimate emperors. Another uncertainty is whether the short-lived seventh king of Revelation 17:10 was intended to correspond with the three emperors of AD 68-69, with one of them, or with the relatively short reign of Titus (AD 79-81). One attractive and popular interpretation is to posit Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, and Nero as the first five emperors, Vespasian as the sixth emperor who "is" (skipping over the three interregna), Titus as the emperor "who must stay for a short while", and Domitian as the final emperor, Nero redivivus. However, Jewish and Christian sources otherwise seem to start with Julius Caesar as the first emperor (cf. Josephus, Antiquities 18.32, Sibylline Oracles 5:12, 4 Ezra 12:15, Barnabas 4:3-6, Theophilus, Ad Autolycum, 3.27), so this solution may well not be correct. It may also be the case that such approaches are somewhat forced since "seven" is a highly symbolic number in Revelation, and so it may not be reasonable to expect a perfect correspondence here.

The trouble with these explanations is that they are based on the premise that predicting world events is impossible.

It's all guessing and the result is NOT a seamless explanation by any means. The ultimate purpose behind the approach you suggest is to discourage people from looking for some future fullfilment of the visions of Revelation.

Each individual is to decide how much weight they want to put on various explanations. However, if a person is inclined to look for some present day or near future fullfilment - then I think my interpretation is more coherent than any of the others. (Watchtower, LaHaye, etc.)

This is a brief outline:

Soviet Union/Russia is the seventh head of the beast that appears slaughtered to death.

It died in 1991. It started looking like a lamb (second part of Rev 13) with free markets and "democratic" election. It is now speaking as the Dragon - persecuting JW's and other small religious groups, government take-over of Televion and other media outlets. Nationalizing oil interests. Questionable elections resulting from restrictive election rules for various parties. Harrassment of those who would challenge Putin.

Babylon the Great is the USA. The USA is trying to encircle Russia with NATO expansion and continued meddling in the internal affairs of former Soviet Republics. The USA is the ultimate hegemon. It has established trade agreements with ruling elites in countries all over the world (fornication) The consequence of this has been governments being placed in hands of minority nationalities that are beholding to the USA for training their secret police and building repressive regimes. The payment to the USA is exclusive access to cheap labor and natural resources.

The revived Russia/USSR is actually like an eighth king although it is one of the seven. At some point it forms an alliance with the kings that have not yet received legitimate rulership. These USA haters eventually destroy the USA. Most likely this will involve an event referred to by Jesus as "the disgusting thing standing where it ought not". From that point things begin to escalate and the Great Tribulation ensues ending in Armageddon. Armageddon is a battle that involves only a third of the earth.

This parallels the final scenes of Daniel. The King of the South pushes the King of the North until the King of the North destroys the King of the South. The final political power on earth is described as an extension of the Roman Empire (feet of iron and clay). This is a fitting description of the Russian empire made up of close to 100 nationalities over 11 time zones.

Perhaps when a mushroom cloud ascends from New York City that will be sufficient sign for people to take this seriously.

Link between BTG and Roman empire seeking information

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