by Ticker 14 Replies latest watchtower bible
Can someone who knows about this please elaborate as I have never heard this explanation. I had no idea that their was a possibility that John was depicting Babylon the Great as figurative to Rome. This is new to me but very interesting, can someone please provide some references or examples as to how this is probable. Thankyou.
Ticker
Sorry forgot to mention that this is from the book of Revelation. Seen this in a recent post that thier could be some evidence of this being true.
Ticker
Pick up a copy of the New American Bible at your bookstore or check it out online: http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/index.htm
The notes follow that theory.
Be prepared to be overwhelemed:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/86994/1446479/post.ashx#1446479
The Society's own interpretation of BTG as Christendom/false religion is ultimately derived from this original understanding (via the Protestant idea that Rome = the Roman Catholic Church), BTW.
Leo,
Clearly it is Rome, all the other religions just give it there own slant according to thier particular prejudice at the time.
One also runs into a big problem when they presupose it to be the genuine word of the ruler of the cosmos God. And so are easily drawn to these presupasitional interpatations.
Here's a couple side by side comparisons with other apocalyptical works of the time. As Leo points out in the linked thread, we can inhance our understanding of the language and symbolism by such comparisos:
apocalypse of Zephaniah/Rev comparison
Just a note, that if you've decided that Rome is BTG that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, but that is not what witnesses teach in case you didn't know. The witnesses believe that BTG is the "world empire of false religion." They also believe that the scarlet-colored wild beast is none other than the United Nations and thus the setting of BTG riding the back of the UN is a modern interpretation and would not have anything to do with Rome. So Rome as BTG is a teaching not related to what JWs teach. Was not sure that was clear in case that was part of your question. I personally have my own view who BTG is but will not interrupt this Rome discussion thread on those thoughts. Hope this was helpful.
JC
Thank you for giving me some good information on this subject. I was pretty overwhelmed, never really knew about that comparison between Babylon and Rome before. Interesting how they were in crisis at the time suffering persecution under Rome and pressure to conform to Pagan beliefs, and that this book of Revelation seems to be a work that was wrote for that period giving courage and hope of the messianic phrophecies to the Christians. Thankyou Classicist and Leo for that information and the very imformative thread in which Leo clearly showed very probable evidence. I liked the point in which the Harlot was refered to in present tence and not future tence. This was really an eye opener for me.
On a side note has anyone heard or read this before, This comes from the link Classicist posted from the New American Bible site,
The author of the book calls himself John ( Rev 1:1 , 4 , 9 ; 22:8 ), who because of his Christian faith has been exiled to the rocky island of Patmos, a Roman penal colony. Although he never claims to be John the apostle, whose name is attached to the fourth gospel, he was so identified by several of the early church Fathers, including Justin, Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, Cyprian, and Hippolytus. This identification, however, was denied by other Fathers, including Denis of Alexandria, Eusebius of Caesarea, Cyril of Jerusalem, Gregory Nazianzen, and John Chrysostom. Indeed, vocabulary, grammar, and style make it doubtful that the book could have been put into its present form by the same person(s) responsible for the fourth gospel. Nevertheless, there are definite linguistic and theological affinities between the two books. The tone of the letters to the seven churches ( Rev 1:4 - 3:22 ) is indicative of the great authority the author enjoyed over the Christian communities in Asia. It is possible, therefore, that he was a disciple of John the apostle, who is traditionally associated with that part of the world. The date of the book in its present form is probably near the end of the reign of Domitian (A.D. 81-96), a fierce persecutor of the Christians.
And also to JC, yes I am familar with the Watchtowers interpretation on this matter but thankyou for clarrifying their viewpoint on this matter.
Ticker
Babylon the great has to be something more than Roman Catholicism and the jws are certainly part of it, whatever it is it has to do with religion and the portion of mankind that is alienated from God, His life and Spirit.
This alienation began in the original Babylon with Nimrod a ferocious tyrant and opposer against all those worshipping the God of Noah. That is the archetypal rejection of God by mankind something that lead directly to the rise of the culture of the instincts that goes on to this day with a parallel alienation from the culture of the spirit.
It may have been the opinion of some early Christians that Rome was Babylon the Great but that is not an adequate explanation. They admittedly get into trouble when they try to explain the beast that she rides and which eventually destroys Babylon the Great.
It is clear that Babylon the Great represents some political entity. Watchtower writers have gotten way off the mark with their construct of a "world empire of false religion". At first they fell for the erroneous protestant notion that the harlot was the Roman Catholic Church. Later they changed that to include all false religion. To prove that idea they used a process of elimination argument which is very easy to disprove. They claim that since she has intercourse with all the nations of the earth she can’t be a political entity. This claim is false because it ignores the same relationship Tyre & Ninevah are said to have with all the nations of the earth. The Watchtower develops this process of elimination argument by saying that religion is absent from the mourning of Babylon the Great. This is circular reasoning that assumes that religion was part of the scene in the first place.
On the other hand the preterist arguments don’t eliminate the possibility of a Babylon the Great on earth today. In fact there is an entity that fits the description of Babylon the Great. The richest entity that has ever existed is the United States. In case you haven’t paid much attention to the world situation most of the nations on earth resent the mono-polar world dominated by the USA.
The Wild Beast the USA is trying to ride is the seventh manifestation of the series of empires that started with Egypt. 1. Egypt 2. Assyria 3. Babylon 4. Persia 5. Greece 6. Rome 7. Russia.
Russia??
Yes. Russia became the seventh not the Anglo/American. Westerners don’t understand the significance of Moscow as the third Rome. The west tends to think of the Roman empire as centered on the City of Rome. The center of gravity of the Roman empire was really in the east/Levant. Constantinople fell much later and the Russians proudly declared themselves the inheritors of the Roman Empire.
Revelation says one of the heads of the beast (7 th most likely) appeared as though slaughtered to death. But its death stroke got healed and it became an eighth king. Is it just coincidental that the USSR died in 1991 but is now beginning to show it’s old menacing behavior. The USA keeps pushing NATO (a military alliance) right up to Russia’s front door. The Kings who have not received a kingdom (former soviet republics) are gradually forming alliances with Russia against the USA. True Ukraine, Georgia, Moldova have recently turned toward the West but that is all the more reason the remaining tyrants are worried that the price they may have to pay for befriending the USA is that they will be removed in some kind of "color" revolution.
The "bomb" that will explode in the USA will be a Russian effort to distract the USA from its plans in the Caucasus. The Moslems will be convenient scapegoats. It will be the Russians who benefit.
Cui Bono? Who Benefits... solves the crime.
The Preterists have it wrong. Tim Lahaye (Left Behind Author) has it WRONG. The Watchtower has it REALLY WRONG. I am positive I have it right.
