Just where is that Great Crowd?

by the_classicist 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    OK, it's been dealt with by others, but I decided to do my own research and write this for the benefit of my JW family (Hopefully the formatting works out): Q: Where is the Great Crowd?
    A: Rev. 7:9 says, “After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no man could number, from every nation from all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands.”

    The Revelation to John goes on to say, “Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night within his temple; and he who sits upon the throne will shelter them with his presence” (7:15).
    In the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society publication, Revelation: A Grand Climax at Hand, they contend that, “
    it is later described at Revelation 7:15 as serving God “in his temple.” But this temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather, it is the earthly courtyard of God’s spiritual temple. The Greek word na·os', here translated “temple,” often conveys the broad sense of the entire edifice erected for Jehovah’s worship. Today, this is a spiritual structure that embraces both heaven and earth.—Compare Matthew 26:61; 27:5, 39, 40; Mark 15:29, 30; John 2:19-21, New World Translation Reference Bible, footnote” (20:14). The Watchtower maintains that naos refers to the entire temple building, "which embraces both heaven and earth." This is completely false." A Greek-English Lexicon , by Liddell and Scott, defines naos, in its first definition, as simply “temple.” But A Greek-English Lexicon further defines what part of the temple that naos refers to the “ inmost part of a temple, shrine containing the image of the god.”[1] In the Jewish context of the temple at Jerusalem, the New American Standard New Testament Greek Lexicon[2] defines naos thus: “used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of gold was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure).”
    In other examples of the usage of naos in the Greek New Testament, it does indeed refer to the inner temple. For example, Luke 1:9 says, “according to the custom of the priesthood, it fell to him by lot to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense.” In this case, Zechariah was entering eis ton naon (into the temple; naon being the accusative of naos).
    Another example of the use of naos in the Greek New Testament is found in Mark 15:38: “And the curtain of the temple [naou] was torn in two, from top to bottom.” In both these usages, naos is referring to the inner part of the temple and never in the New Testament to the as a whole.
    Furthermore, Revelation: A Grand Climax at Hand, states that “this temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather it is the earthly courtyard of God’s spiritual temple.” Rev. 11:1-2 says, “Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told: “Rise and measure the temple [naon] of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the measure the court outside the temple [naou]; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months.””
    Which Greek word does refer to “the entire edifice erected for Jehovah’s worship”? In Mark 11:15, Jesus “entered the temple and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple, and began to drive out those who sold and those who bought in the temple…” The word used to signify the general temple here in the Gospel of Mark is hieron, which is defined by A Greek-English Lexicon (Liddell and Scott) as being “the Jewish temple.”


    [1] The other two definitions listed are 1) a portable shrine carried in processions and 2) a metaphor used in 1 Cor. 3:16. [2] This resource is “based upon Thayer’s and Smith’s Bible Dictionary and others.”
  • the_classicist
    the_classicist

    OK, after:

    The

    in the text, it should read: "The Watchtower maintains that naos refers to the entire temple building, "which embraces both heaven and earth." This is completely false."


    edited to read: I added the above part to the text. Sorry for the messy formatting! Please point out any errors.

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    I'm of the opinion that the Book of Revelation was written after the Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed. The author in the early chapters was trying to show that it had a heavenly counterpart that was still enduring. By the time we get to Rev. 21:22 it is God and the Lamb who are the Temple. Rev. 19 has the great crowd in heaven, where God and the Lamb are.

  • mad max
    mad max

    Thanks so much for post, iam printing this out to show my little sister.

    Interesting, when my daughter loubelle pointed this out to 2 sisters before she was D'fed just recently, they COULD NOT ANSWER HER.

    But as usual the 2 sisters would not listen and now being D'fed we cannot show this to any of family, the borg saw to that, but hopefully my little sister will. Thanks once again for this.

  • NeonMadman
    NeonMadman


    Vincent's Word Studies makes the following comments on Matthew 4:5 (where a form of hieron appears):

    The word temple ([hieron] lit., sacred place) signifies the whole compass of the sacred inclosure, with its porticos, courts, and other subordinate buildings; and should be carefully distinguished from the other word, [naos] also rendered temple, which means the temple itself - the "Holy Place" and the "Holy of Holies." When we read, for instance, of Christ teaching in the temple ([hieron]) we must refer it to one of the temple-porches. So it is from the [hieron], the court of the Gentiles, that Christ expels the money-changers and cattle-merchants. In Mat_27:51 , it is the veil of the [naos] which is rent; the veil separating the holy place from the holy of holies. In the account of Zacharias entering into the temple of the Lord to burn incense (Luk_1:9 ), the word is [naos], the holy place in which the altar of incense stood. The people were "without," in the fore-courts. In Joh_2:21 , the temple of his body, [hieron], would be obviously inappropriate . Note: The Greek characters from the above did not transfer into the post, so I substituted the transliterations, shown in [brackets]. The word forms may not be correct, as I don't actually read Greek fluently, but the base word in each place should be right.

  • Honesty
    Honesty
    Rev. 19 has the great crowd in heaven, where God and the Lamb are.

    If all JW's were honestly searching for truth and discovered this Bible truth the WTBTS would cease to exist

  • mrsjones5
    mrsjones5
    Where is the Great Crowd?

    At a summer concert?

    Josie

  • M.J.
    M.J.

    Something I wrote on this topic:

    Originally, Pastor Russell taught that the Great Crowd group identified in Revelation was a secondary class of Christians who were not part of the 144,000 but still were a heavenly class. They were justified by faith in Christ’s sacrifice and "spirit begotten" or born-again, but failed to pass the trials of dedication and so did not get to reign as preists and heirs of the kingdom with Christ. And then there was yet another class of people who was to be an "Eartly Class". They were all people who ever lived, who were covered by Christ’s sacrifice but did not show faith and were not "spirit begotten". They would all be resurrected onto the earth and finally reach perfection after a trial period 1000 years, the millenial reign (sound familiar?). But their ultimate destiny was the earth. This is outlined in the Studies in the Scriptures volumes. There were other classes in the mix which made for a big complicated mess in explaining who did what, who these people were, how one class of people would have to join another if they didn't make the cut, where they stood symbolically in the temple or in the courtyards, who was a Levite, who was a preist, how perfection was acheived, yadda yadda yadda. These class distinctions were all designed to fit nicely in Russell’s complicated timetables and calculations for "the end of the age" which was come to a total end in 1914. So after Russell died, Rutherford kind of inherited a mess of loose strings to tie up doctrinally, which he did quite effectively.

    The Revelation Climax book says:

    *** re chap. 20 p. 125 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***

    …those of the John class [the 144,000 anointed] on earth got to learn the identity of the great crowd by closely observing what Jehovah was performing in their midst. They were quick to appreciate the dazzling flash of divine light that emblazoned the theocratic firmament in 1935, at Jehovah’s due time.

    18

    During the 1920’s and early 1930’s, the John class had stressed the heavenly hope, both in the publications and in the preaching work. Apparently, the full number of the 144,000 had yet to be filled. But increasing numbers of those who heeded the message and who showed zeal in the witness work came to profess an interest in living forever on the Paradise earth. They had no desire to go to heaven. That was not their calling. They were no part of the little flock but rather of the other sheep. (Luke 12:32; John 10:16) Their being identified in 1935 as the great crowd of other sheep was an indication that the choosing of the 144,000 was then about complete.

    This brings up a great many interesting questions. It says here that God had finished choosing the 144,000 in 1935. If this is correct, how did they get this information? Did God speak directly to Joseph Rutherford? The 144,000 are chosen by God, so only God would know at what time this exact number would be filled. (as the chapter goes on to show, Rutherford was the one who presented this new teaching) This chapter seems to suggest that Rutherford’s new interpretation of the "Great Crowd" seemed to miraculously coincide at the proper time with the hope for paradise earth that some dedicated Bible Students were already feeling. So it suggests that Rutherford must have received this message directly from God, in God's perfect timing.

    Could such a teaching be revealed purely through scripture? Or as Rutherford asserted, did Jehovah truly conceal the true meaning of what John wrote for 1,845 years until He revealed it to Rutherford? It does appear that this new teaching solved some developing problems with their existing doctrines. In particular, it solved the problem that too many people were joining the Society to believably be part of the 144,000. Adding a righteous way to be in the "earthly" class freed up unlimited room for expansion. Also, up until this point every congregation had a large amount of independence from the central organization. Congregation overseers (called elders) were elected into office, and many had full control of their congregations. The doctrinal change allowed Rutherford to teach that the central organization represented the 144,000 and that all the congregations must tightly fall under the oversight of the 144,000, or "Faithful Discreet Slave". So these elected overseers were replaced with "company servants", which were appointed by the central organization, thereby reigning in more control over the congregations. I have read from the biblestudents.net forum of cases where the former elected elders and even whole congregations became disgusted and left the organization during this time. Here’s how this new arrangement was recently described in the Watchtower Magazine:

    *** Watchtower 02 7/1 p. 17 Jehovah’s Glory Shines on His People *** 9 In 1938, congregations around the world resolved to accept an improved arrangement, one that was more in harmony with Scriptural precedent. Congregation administration was entrusted to a company servant and other servants, all appointed under the oversight of the faithful and discreet slave. No more elections! Thus congregation appointments were made in a theocratic way. That was like "iron" instead of "stones" or "gold" instead of "copper."

    So in light of all this, was this new teaching a "flash of divine light" or was it simply a convenient way for Rutherford to patch doctrinal holes and shift the power structure in his favor? The Revelation book goes on to say:
    *** Revelation Climax chap. 20 pp. 120-122 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***
    5 The understanding of Revelation 7:9-17 was now about to burst forth in all its sparkling brilliance!
    … In a stirring talk on "The Great Multitude," delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford, president of the Watch Tower Society, gave
    Scriptural proof that the modern-day other sheep are identical with that great crowd of Revelation 7:9. At the climax of this talk, the speaker asked: "Will all those who have the hope of living forever on the earth please stand?" As a large part of the audience stood up, the president declared: "Behold! The great multitude!"

    This is from the beginning of the chapter, but the chapter fails to clue the reader in as to what is the "Scriptural proof" that Rutherford gave. It goes on to discuss how various verses could now be viewed in light of this "revelation" (without getting into how they were previously viewed), but no real scriptural proof tying the "great crowd" to a new, separate, earthly class with no heavenly hope outside of the New Covenant is given.
    I don’t deny the possibility of an "earthly hope" (within various interpretations of biblical eschatology) but I just wonder about separating Christians into class distinctions, creating a whole elaborate theology around it, having to define which portions of the Bible applies to which class (the Beattitudes of Matt 5:3-12 come to mind), etc., with this entire doctrinal superstructure based on a deduction of the meaning of a couple prophetic visions in Revelation. Could these few passages imply that the much of the rest of the New Testament is not written to all of us but primarily written to a select class of people? Or are the Christian Greek Scriptures written and applicable to everyone who receives its message: that you must be born again (John 3:3,5,7), are declared righteous, are spirit-begotten, granted sonship with God, receive the indwelling Holy Spirit (2 Cor. 1:21,22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14), must take the bread and the wine (John 6:53,54), and must have Christ as your mediator, not a man-made organization (1 Tim. 2:5)? The Watchtower teaches that all this applies only to the 144,000, and that for the rest of the JWs, being excluded from the New Covenant promises means "adoption" into God's family will come only after 1000 years of obedience and testing in the New System TM . Where did all that come from? I’ll have to say I find it hard to fathom that John had this in mind when he wrote that "Everyone believing that Jesus is the Christ, has been born from God." (1 John 5:1- NWT), not just the 144,000!
    Here is where the Revelation book addresses the actual scriptures that talk about the "great crowd":

    *** Revelation Climax chap. 20 p. 124 A Multitudinous Great Crowd ***
    In Heaven or on Earth? 12 How do we know that "standing before the throne" does not mean that the great crowd is in heaven? There is much clear evidence on this point…[lots of fluff follows, look it up!]

    ...True, it is later described at Revelation 7:15 as serving God "in his temple." But this temple does not refer to the inner sanctuary, the Most Holy. Rather, it is the earthly courtyard of God’s spiritual temple. The Greek word na·os´,

    here translated "temple," often conveys the broad sense of the entire edifice erected for Jehovah’s worship. Today, this is a spiritual structure that embraces both heaven and earth.

    As the Classicist pointed out, let’s look at their reasoning on the Greek word naos. The best rule of word interpretation is to see how the same word is used in other places in a similar context, in the same book and by the same author. A few chapters later, John actually gives us the benefit of describing just where this "temple" [naos] is!

    REV 11:19- And the temple [naos] of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple [naos], and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

    Seems pretty clear. Temple [naos] is in heaven. Great Crowd is in temple. Where is Great Crowd?

    BUT despite this, is there a chance that the "temple" (which is in heaven) includes the "earthly courtyard"? Well, Rev 11:1-2 actually talks about the outer court. It shows that the "court" is not part of the temple, but is OUTSIDE and separate from the temple:

    …"Get up and measure the temple of God and the altar, and those who worship in it. "Leave out the court which is outside the temple [naos] and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months. Huh? Maybe it’s talking about a court outside of the earthly court that is outside of the temple but part of the temple where the nations reside which is outside of the earth…never mind.

    Ok. If all this isn’t enough, here’s one final verse:
    REV 19:1- After these things I heard what was as a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. (New World Translation)

    Hmm. It seems like Rutherford really had to bend the scriptures and jump through hoops to make the scriptures conform to his "flash of divine light". Should one be faulted for not seeing it?Ref: http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/greatcrowd.htm

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien

    hey classicist, nice. i hope that makes them think since they know you study classics. well done.

    TS

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