God and religion etc..............................

by Zep 36 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Pathofthorns

  My faith in God is based entirely on whether or not Jesus is who they said he was

  
  This is the difficult thing for me. I also choose to believe in Christ being the Messiah, but it is "entirely on whether or not Jesus is who they said he was", which means while I personally choose to believe, how can I possibly insist in my being "right" because of what my "evidence" is based on.

  Ultimately the evidence I have is not so much based in fact, but faith in what was written and the truthfulness of the testimony of men.

  After examining the works of the so-called hostile witnesses, some historians and writers like Josephus, Pliny, and Porphyry, I still believe-I believe that Jesus was more than an ancient hero.

  
  These days I'm not sure how to view Jesus. The evidence supporting some sort of Trinity and the evidence suggesting otherwise sort of throws me for a loop.

  I do know there is more to the divinity of Christ than simply what we have been taught as Witnesses.

  Also, the person described in the Gospels is quite the remarkable and likable character. Those 4 books simply shine in the Bible as they reveal someone so brilliant, compassionate, kind, merciful and powerful.

  To me, they almost seem out of place, and his personality described therein seems almost contradictory to the Jehovah of the Old Testiment whom Christ mirrored perfectly.

  This trying to figure how to understand the Bible, what weight to put to certain parts, or all of it, how to view it in the big picture of world religion and beliefs, is going to be the toughest part of all.

  My faith hinges on the fact that Jesus was the messiah. If it could be proven otherwise, there would be nothing left for me.

  Interesting comment.

  Well, myself, i have a lot of doubt now. But i cant disprove God or a greater being or anything.I'm not going to use my doubt as a basis to dis-believe.Why should i make that jump, what good would it do me.

  Zep, you make some interesting comments too. I am sure of very little these days, and find it difficult to proclaim anything as "the truth" with certainty. I wonder how much that really matters anyway?

  Path
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  waiting

  Hey y'all,

  There is, however, a strong empirical reason why we should cultivate thoughts that can never be proved. It is that they are known to be useful. Man positively needs general ideas and convictions that will give a meaning to his life and enable him to find a place for himself in the universe. He can stand the most incredible hardships when he is convinced that they make sense; he is crushed when, on top of all his misfortunes, he has to admit that he is taking part in a "tale told by an idiot."

  It is the role of religious symbols to give a meaning to the life of man.

  If I'm reading this correctly, Jung is saying that the belief is more important than the truth of the belief. Man is getting benefit, inner calm & solace from the belief.

  Isn't that what the churches have always done? Interpretations to fit their beliefs to solidify there own agendas - for good or bad?

  The WTBTS came to us saying they would tell us the True Belief - "The Truth." They encouraged us to condemn the idea of "tickling our ears" with false teachings, beliefs, etc. It was necessary to worship God with "spirit and truth." "Your word is truth."

  Jung seems to be saying that the search for truth or true meaning is not the necessary ingredient - the belief is what maintains a man's well being.

  If that's the case, there are easier ways to have a belief in order to have a sense of well being other than being a devout anything.

  Most of the killing and being killed in the world has been done in the name of devout beliefs. Perhaps that's the flipside of Jung's coin?

  Keeping a balanced perspective is deceptively difficult, isn't it?

  waiting
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  Frenchy

  Circare:
  

  Frenchy I don't think a belief in God can be something that is chosen on a whim either. There would have to be some basis - what could be a basis for this faith in your opinion?

  While I concur with Jung that it is impossible to prove the existence of God conclusively, I do believe that it is not without some basis. Like Path I find that there are too many things that are interrelated and marvelously balanced for all of this to be by mere chance for one thing. In a previous discussion some of us agreed that there were some things that the Bible credits God with doing that seems rather inconsistent with the attributes he is pictured as possessing. Along the same line there many inconsistencies with ‘blind evolution’ as well. According to Jung I should reason that all things being equal I should choose to believe in God because it would prove to be useful.
  What I am saying is that (exceptions exist) for the most part people cannot just arbitrarily choose to believe that something is true because that belief would give them a feeling of contentment. You wake up in the middle of the night and you hear noises. What do you do? Well, it could be just the wind and if I accept that then I can go back to sleep right away and not have to bother with getting up, grabbing little Johnny’s baseball bat and prowl around the house. What will you do? Can you just go back to sleep or do you have to investigate?
  waiting: I agree with you. I for one cannot believe just because the belief would bring me solace. That is why I am not at the meetings anymore. I would love to believe again but now I can't.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-

  Edited by - Frenchy on 6 September 2000 9:1:59
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  Zep

  If I'm reading this correctly, Jung is saying that the belief is more important than the truth of the belief. Man is getting benefit, inner calm & solace from the belief.

  Jung is about balance.He subjected many things to rational inquiry and hes not saying you shouldn't think for yourself or question things to find answers.That was in fact what Jung was all about, thinking for yourself, finding your own INDIVIDUAL PATH in life....of which he called the 'process of individuation'.I probably should have put the first half of the article up, it probably explains a little more .It moreorless said that Communism and Capitalism fail to see their own short-coming of which they all too easily see in the opposing side.You could say the same about religion and people in general.With JW's, its the rest of the world thats evil and they(dubs) are the only way, the only good in an evil world.They project all their shortcomings and insecurities onto others but fail to see it in themselves, that they are no better.This is the problem with the whole world essentially and gives rise to wars and everything else.Jung was 100% against totalitarianism as any normal person should be.
  You can have a belief in God and faith in a religion and not be dogmatic at the same time.I personnally put the idea of "god" in a separate catagory....into the realm of 'faith'.I have a very hazy definition of God now and i don't look to the bible as the one true source, but more so to my own mind and instincts.I put God outside the realm of rational inquiry, i dont need to prove his existence rationally to believe, i just let it go, let my instincts and desires go on the matter....I'm not going to deprive this world and life in general of a greater hope, whatever that maybe (it may well be an illusion but thats something i cant prove or disprove).My instincts tell me that a belief in God is better for me than an Atheist view of things.My belief in God is not a Dogmatic one...i'm not seeking to impose my views and morals on others because of that VAgUE belief i have, unlike other religions.I dont believe in a God of Hellfire and brimstone who makes you go out door knockin', giving out magazines...and is going to burn everyone at Armageddon! But i believe in something!
• 

  Zep

  Like Path I find that there are too many things that are interrelated and marvelously balanced for all of this to be by mere chance for one thing

  An atheist would argue all day with you on this point Frenchy.But you sum up my feeling on things and probably the reason why i decide to believe in god (in essence).Its just a feeling, an instinct that moves me to awe when i observe the world around, its just unbelievable and amazing...This 'awe' that i sense translates into God, into some vague purpose and meaning behind life.

  Edited by - Zep on 6 September 2000 23:1:0
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  circare

  Ditto Path, I find life around us fascinating. The human body and psyche, the world, the universe and all the possible concepts associated - simply amazing! I prefer to see them as evidence of a higher intelligence as compared to concepts like evolution.

  7 you make a good point, definitely Jesus life and ministry holds a lot of food for thought. Although examining that, in my mind, gets all tangled up with the consideration of whether the bible is God's word or not.

  What an interesting statement Zep, that the 'instinct or desire to believe is more than enough of a basis to believe.'. I like your attitude here. However, obviously the desire to have or see something a particular way does not mean that it is that way. I'm not sure at this stage how to believe just because I would like it to be.

  Like you waiting, I think that a sense of well being comes directly under one's own influence with or without a belief in God. Yes to get that balanced perspective! Every time I think I might be getting close, someone comes along with a different perspective, and shakes things up again. I sometimes think life is like those 'sand pictures'. Where are the absolutes to pin everything on? Or doesn’t it matter anyway?
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  circare

  Frenchy I want to investigate.
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  Zep

  circare,

  However, obviously the desire to have or see something a particular way does not mean that it is that way

  Thats right, but it doesn't mean it isn't that way either.I cant prove God...but equally, i cant disprove God or a greater reality...or life after death.So, therefore, i am entirely free to choose....I can say :"Well, i cant see god, he must me a load of bollocks" or i can trust my instincts or desires, you know, just that feeling that there is a greater being.Thats all the basis of my belief is. My belief is no way rock solid BTW, i'm all too well aware that it all may be an illusion, but i've tried the athiest way of viewing things...and i got nothing out of it other than a real negative feeling.

  I'm not sure at this stage how to believe just because I would like it to be.

  Well, making something a habit is pretty much the only way. I think if you reflect on how you became a dub, you'll see that it was just the repitition of reading the WT, of going to meetings that strengthened you belief...it became rock solid out of habit. All that constant reinforcement served to build your faith, it was however, an illusion.I think the best way to cultivate a belief in God, is to create a habit....Prayer, i think, is a good habit to start.Probably the best habit!...better than reading some 2000 year old book i reckon..

  I prefer to see them as evidence of a higher intelligence as compared to concepts like evolution.

  If you prefer it, then why not see things that way!.I tell you, Atheism aint no great kick, i didn't get anything out of that belief when i tried it.Actually, i'm kinda an Agnostic now who's just decided he may as believe in something as opposed to nothing!.I dont know exactly what that something is....its a vague concept, but i like it that way, it gives me room to move, to change my opinions without shaking the fundamental foundations of that belief!
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  waiting

  Hey Zep,

  I think it was Woody Allen who said "I'm an Agnostic with one foot in the Atheist's grave."

  waiting
• 

  Zep

  That about sums it up Waiting, really!!!!!!!!!!

  He also said:

  If only God would give me some clear sign! Like making a large deposit in my name at a Swiss bank.

  To *you* I'm an atheist; to God, I'm the Loyal Opposition.

  I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve it through not dying. - Woody Allen

  Why are our days numbered and not, say, lettered.

  No matter how cynical you are, you can't keep up.