"Science is not Bad, but there is Bad Science."

by Rod P 46 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem
    I suspect that all too often, neither one is truly "listening" to what the other one is trying to say, since they are too busy putting the other side down, often with no less than knee-jerk reactions. Either that, or they are quietly telling themselves "Oh, that's another one of those believers (or non-believers). I'll just ignore that, or move on." This is the kind of bias I would somehow like to have eliminated or at least minimized as much as is humanly possible for discussion purposes, so that we all might benefit from a real learning experience.

    This is true indeed. I am also guilty sometimes on this, as we all are I guess.
    However I think listening is very important, and I am very willing to listen to good arguments.

    Rod, do you want to start the discussion in this thread?

    p.s. tetra, nice quotes from Sagan. He is one of my favourites. He understood the importance of involving the general public in sciences. Some scientist tend to forget this.

    Danny

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Danny,

    No, I would really like to start a separate thread on the topic Big Bang Theory, and after that start another new thread on Relativity. I know there is some overlap between the two, and that's OK if it occurs in the discussions on either thread.

    It's just that these are both rather large topics, with much to explore, and I think that separate threads will contribute to bringing the topics into sharper focus. At least that's my theory. The validity of this assumption or otherwise will manifest as the discussions unfold.

    In addition, I'm sure most of us have started threads and experienced the kind of time and attention that this requires. It's a lot of work and follow-up (unless they're the light and fluffy ones, which are fun and have their place too). So this is just another strategy I am hoping will keep things down to manageable proportions.

    My instincts tell me that the topics we are getting into are going to be very challenging and extensive. Countless books have been written on the Big Bang and Relativity, These subjects are quite complex and involved. A lot of the math is absolutely mind-numbing. There may be a few of you that want to spend a little time in the math area. But this can also be quite intimidating, even boring for most folks. Therefore, I would hope we could keep much of the discussion as reader-friendly as possible.

    I am actually quite shocked how this particular thread has turned into the amount of commentary and back and forth dialogue that has been generated. I'm thrilled with the apparent interest, but surprised at the voluminous contributions from so many responders. I initally thought it was going to pop in and pop out on this forum, and then die an early death. This has convinced me all the more that there should be separate threads for the next topics.

    Tetra,

    I really appreciated your interesting post on Carl Sagan. He is one of my favorite scientists. I watched all of his Cosmos series twice, and he had me hooked and mesmerized. I have the tape on the soundtrack from the Cosmos series, and that was another thing that blew me away. I was struck with the impression that he was the type of person who was a fair and decent human being, and not at all haughty. One of his most admirable qualities was his ability to take vast complexities, reduce them down, and then present them in a clear and comprehensible manner. He was also an excellent writer, who wrote with precision and clarity. I was quite saddened when he passed away. (Another guy that really intrigues me is Stephen Jay Gould, but that's another story).

    In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion. [Carl Sagan, 1987 CSICOP keynote address]

    A good observation. However, I wonder if Carl Sagan would have drawn that comparison had he met all the members on the JWD forum. Aren't most of us here examples of people who went thru the process of "changing our minds" in terms of religion, despite the pain we all experienced as a result?

    Rod P.

  • tetrapod.sapien
    tetrapod.sapien
    A good observation. However, I wonder if Carl Sagan would have drawn that comparison had he met all the members on the JWD forum. Aren't most of us here examples of people who went thru the process of "changing our minds" in terms of religion, despite the pain we all experienced as a result?

    i think that had he met the members of the JWD forum, he would have been very impressed, at everyone, including those who still subscribe to a deity. we may take it for granted, but it truly is unique, on a human level, to change our ideas at all, let alone our entire lives and paradigms. not everyone can do this. i'm not sure if you knew this, but sagan actually has an interesting quote about jehovah's witnesses. here it is:

    "[The Watchtower Society] confidently predicted that the world would end in 1914....It is astonishing in the face of such transparent evasions that this religion has any adherents at all....The fact that [its religious leaders] can be so shamelessly dishonest, so contemptuous of the intelligence of [its] adherents and still flourish, does not speak well for the tough-mindedness of [Jehovah's Witnesses]." - Broca's Brain, (Ballantines Books, New York, 1982 pp. 332-3) *
  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Tetra,

    Wow! No, I was not aware of that one. I knew about Broca's Brain, but have never read it.

    Rod P.

    p.s. Sorry I don't have Big Bang up and running just yet. This darn "making a living" keeps rearing its ugly head. Oh well, please be patient. I don't want things to fizzle out or become anti-climactic.

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    I have now posted a new thread "Questioning the Big Bang Theory"

    Here is the new link:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/94587/1606385/post.ashx#160638

    See you all there.

    Rod P.

  • cyborg
    cyborg

    In science as anywhere else there's competition. Competition to come to new discoveries before everyone else. But that does that mean science is corrupted. Well, ask yourself how much are scientists really paid. Not helluva lot. If most scientists were corrupted they would be some of the richest people in the world given the amount of knowledge they have.
    Instead it is highschool dropouts that make most of money. So bringing science and scientists at the same level as that is really insulting.

  • DannyBloem
    DannyBloem
    In science as anywhere else there's competition. Competition to come to new discoveries before everyone else. But that does that mean science is corrupted. Well, ask yourself how much are scientists really paid. Not helluva lot. If most scientists were corrupted they would be some of the richest people in the world given the amount of knowledge they have.

    Instead it is highschool dropouts that make most of money. So bringing science and scientists at the same level as that is really insulting.

    Well, I think the one started the thread does not think corruption because of money.
    IMO there are some scientists who are maybe corrupted, but corrupted to get there name published. As making a name means more funding, and has a lot of personal advantages. However I beleive that this is just a few scientist who do this. Just a very few. The far majority are honest working peolpe who are motivated by the fascination to unraffle the truth of nature. Danny

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