My brother wants to talk to me about why I left the org. He is JW.

by avengers 23 Replies latest jw friends

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  Honesty

  Remind him of how the society and God view those that make false accusations. Make him agree to prove you are telling lies before he can label you as an apostate or liar. You also need to agree on what the definition of an apostate is. Make him agree that someone who tells the truth in a matter can't be an apostate.

  If you are going to discuss the societies claim of divine inspiration, you need to agree on the definition of a prophet beforehand. Don't wait until you are in the middle of a discussion and then try to agree on the definition. Do it first before you talk about anything. Write it down if you need to so that he can't go back and say, "I didn't say that."

  No getting mad and walking out either. "If you want to know what I have to say, you have to stay until I am finished."

  Excellent. Ask him questions that require a Yes or No answer. Tailor these so that he either confirms the bible is true or false with his answers. In doing so you may get him to see that if he believes the bible on a subject which contradicts WT dogma then the WTBTS is flawed.
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  sf

  Hey avengers,

  My suggestion, and it's in a thread I submitted (look at my topic history for my MOTHER thread) just the other day, is straight up make him agree that there will no interruptions or turning away in any manner or agrueing. Make it clear that you will only tell him if he agrees first. If he simply can't help but argue and interrupt, I'd cease the conversation.

  Good luck, sKally
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  jaffacake

  Excellent advice from Seymour. He approached you, so only agree to explain your reasons if he first accepts your ground rules.

  Skyman

  Any chance of letting me see a copy of your blood letter?

  Some of the best simple logic I have seen yet is in the Captives of a concept book (1914 & FDS). You could jot down the main points as if your own research.

  Plan carefull & stay focused & calm & don't let him change the subject.
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  Frog

  Hey there Andy, should be an interesting discussion I imagine! The thing is I'd be very surprised if this wasn't intended as a one sided discussion. When he says he wants to talk to you about why you left the org, I doubt very much that he really wants to hear you out. I'd say to him that you're happy to have the discussion but be prepared to accept allot of things that might be difficult to hear, that you won't be talked at, and you're absolutely convinced in your motivations for leaving. And of course make sure you're really prepared with some good positions. Try to word the conversation in such a way that isn't an attack. If you go in with typical "apostate" reasonings he's likely to shut off and not be open to a reasonable discussion.

  Anyway, all the best with it. Wish we could be a fly on the wall! frog
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  kgfreeperson

  I agree with Frog--he doesn't want to hear why you left the organization. He wants to tell you why you shouldn't have left and why you should return.
  
  Sounds like a good discussion to skip!
  
  Good luck.
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  Netty

  He, (my brother) is the one interested in why I left.

  Thats really good news. In all this time, no one has ever asked me that question (maybe they dont want to hear the answer). My advice (since I have had this very talk with my dad) is go ahead and say everything you have wanted to say, but try to remain calm and rationale. II got upset a few times, and wish I wouldn't have, I think I discredited myself.

  Your brother has been trained to talk around in circles, and will have canned responses for your arguments. Thats what I ran into with my father. I didnt let him do it to me. I came back around to the "Generation" change several times, because of how he kept steering the conversation away from it.

  Good luck!
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  zulukai

  Wish you lots of luck. My brother asked me some time after I left why I'd done so and I remembered to remain calm and focused as several people here have suggested. This works best and you must refuse to get tangled up in emotions and say things you later regret. I had to bite my tongue several times because my sister-in-law who sat in on the discission was such a ninny, so programmed and immature. They did listen, for the most part and I could tell my story shocked them as they sat there like two deer in the headlights and did not talk down to me or sneer at what I had to say. I just came back from a week with my family in Vancouver and saw this brother and his wife for the first time in four years. I was dreading it but something interesting happened. Not only has my JW brother allowed his daughter to set her sights on a nursing career,which involves four years of college study now, he came and sat next to me and told me out of the blue that he now sees that "this old system is not going to end anytime soon" and he has told his kids that they all will get a good education because in today's world everyone needs a job that pays well and gives them a retirement plan. When he said the part about the system not ending soon I interjected "maybe never!" and he just nodded in agreement!!! So you never know what is perking away inside these people. Something has definately snapped for my brother and his wife and I for one was overjoyed!!.......You never know, something may have been bothering your brother and he just has to find out where you are coming from. At the very least you might say something that hits a nerve with him that starts the ball rolling. Let us know what happens!!
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  Scully

  I try not to focus on doctrine as much as behaviour of JWs. When it comes to doctrine, either you believe it or you don't - and if you don't believe it, you are an apostate.

  Behaviour is what you experienced it to be. And almost every single one of us who posts here has some experience with JWs not measuring up to Jesus' words in John 13

  By this all will know that you are my disciples if you have love among yourselves.

  Your brother will tell you that you shouldn't stay stumbled over the imperfections of The Brothers and Sisters™. But what I said to my own JW relatives was this: "If I was a Catholic person and you met me in Field Service™, and was telling you all these things that had happened to me in my church, you would tell me that the behaviour proves that my fellow church-goers are not Jesus' true disciples because they don't have love among themselves. You would read Jesus' words in John 13 to me as a proof text, and you would encourage me to leave my church and join yours. If I thought about going back, you would remind me of how badly they treated me and ask me why I would want to go back to such an unloving atmosphere. Why is it that you refuse to hold your own congregations to the same standard as you expect of other churches?"

  They cannot answer that question without saying something very foolish.
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  zulukai

  Scully: I have used that very same argument with all my former witness friends and my family and the effect of it has always been the same: stunned stares, embarassment, then angry disbelief that jw's EVER did or said those things. They know I'm not a liar so they say that I must have misunderstood what was said or done. The brainwash is so intense, as we know, that facts and even proof of what happened just skip off the hard shell of their locked-down minds. But at some time in every JW's experience they come across personal evidence that there is something very wrong with their picture. The fact that people get angry when faced with a truth means you've struck a nerve. My brother used to talk down to me and openly sneered at me for leaving the religion. But as I mentioned in the post prior to yours, he's now going against the religion's BS in regard to education and this is a HUGE breakthrough....as was his admissionn that he now believes this "old system" is not going to end anytime soon, if ever. I could see in his demeanor that something very significant has happened to his thinking. Avengers brother could very well have some doubts of his own and this could be the opportunity to widen the breach. If all he wants is to bash him over the head with guilt and self-righteousness then Avengers knows how to deal with that I'm sure. But your excellent suggestion has always been my favourite battle strategy, what goes around, comes around.
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  hamsterbait

  All the above is right.

  However he could well be setting you up to speak against them in the presence of witnesses to your wickedness.

  Avoid dicussing the whole FDS thing or whether you believe this is God's one true organisation. Stick only to verifiable facts.

  Otherwise you may get a couple of dutch elders knocking on your door when you get home and harassing you to DA. They are living in their own created version of a police state.

  HB