by Leolaia 62 Replies latest watchtower bible
Leo,
Thank you for the clarification.
I was thinking of apostles in the sense of the Twelve. At the top of the list in the congregation's "hierarchy" are apostles (1 Cor. 12:28-29; Eph. 3:5 and 4:11) but I had always thought of those as the Twelve. But, as has been pointed out, the title seems to have been expanded to include others besides the Twelve Do you think then that an effort was made to maintain that number Twelve (as a ministry in the congregation) per Acts 1:26?
Ross: There is no explicit interpretation of Genesis 3:15 as a messianic prophecy in the New Testament. Interestingly the possible reminiscences of this text in Luke 10:19 and Romans 16:20 are collective; only the vision of the "woman in heaven" of Revelation 12 might allude to Genesis 3:15f and single Christ out as "her son, a male child" (v. 5) -- yet it goes on by speaking of "the rest of their children" (v. 17).
The concentration on one individual "seed" in the acrobatic Galatians 3:16 refers to the seed of Abraham, not Eve, although the WT had us mix up those two distinct threads.
Kenneson: Because we are used to read the Gospels first we tend to see "the Twelve" as "apostles in the strictest sense" and others as "apostles in a looser, secondary definition of the term," but I believe this is an anachronism. Reading the NT texts in their probable chronological order reveals instead that the equation of "the apostles" and "the Twelve" is secondary. In addition to the texts which Leolaia quoted, in 1 Corinthians 15:5 the "Twelve" are clearly distinct from "all the apostles" (v. 7).
Didier:
There's no explicit anything, in that verse. I guess I'm working on that which was implicit, to the contemporary audience. What did "through the childbirth" (dia tos teknogonia) mean to them?
Having heard a lecture on the subject just this past Wednesday, from a non-adulterated (by JWs) Christian source, I'm merely presenting that viewpoint for examination
(1 Timothy 2:12-14) 12
I do not permit a woman to teach, or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression.
Sorry Christians, I think its the Bible that is sexist and insults women, not just the Dubs.
Ross: to me it makes full sense as a literal promotion of marriage and childbearing against a Gnostic background.
Cf. Leolaia's initial post:
In many gnostic systems, the female body was especially pernicious because it had creative power and was the means through which the Demiurge continues to imprison divine sparks within bodies of flesh. Thus, childbearing was viewed as evil and women within the gnostic movement were not expected to marry (marriage being an arrangement established by the Demiurge) or have offspring. See the attitude expressed in Gospel of Thomas 79:3: "Blessed are the womb which has not conceived and the breasts which have not given milk" (cf. Luke 23:29). With reference to the gnostic Saturninus, Irenaeus says that "he says that marriage and procreation are from Satan" (Adversus Haereses, 1.24.2), and the later Encratites "preached against marriage, thus setting aside the original creation of God, and indirectly blaming him who made the male and female for the propagation of the human race" (1.28.1). Tertullian notes that Marcion and Apelles held this view as well (De Praescriptione Haereticorum, 33). The Gospel of the Egyptians also records a conversation between Salome and Jesus:Any allegorical or figurative interpretation of "childbearing" in the context of the Pastorals would ruin the anti-Gnostic intent imo."When Salome asked, 'How long will death have power?' the Lord answered, 'So long as you women bear children'...The Savior himself said, 'I have come to undo the works of the female' " (Gospel of the Egyptians, Fr. 1-2; quoted by Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 3.6.45.3, 3.9.63.1-2).
LittleToe....The exegesis of Genesis 2-3, to the extent that there is one, appears to be confined locally to 1 Timothy 2:13-15. Childbearing, on the other hand, is mentioned again as something that would protect women from falling under Satan's influence (5:14), indicating that this is what the author had in mind when he said in 2:15 that childbearing brings salvation to women. Moreover, the forbidding of marriage is a key feature of the heresy (4:3), so again marriage and childbearing would save women from the snares of the error. Thus, the allusion to childbearing in 2:15 is not merely due to a reading of Genesis 2-3 but is directed towards a problem existing in the community involving the forbidding of marriage and childbearing (implicitly a feature of marriage). Gnostic attitudes towards marriage and childbearing provide the most comprehensive explanation of this and gnosticism appears to be what "silly women" were involved with (2 Timothy 3:6-7; compare 1 Timothy 6:20).
I find that difficult to comprehend from any of the contemporary camps. Maybe I'm missing something (or just being thick ).
I can understand what you're saying, regarding the contest with the "anti-marriage" lobby, but is that really the whole picture?
From the "works" brigade, I'm unaware of there being other allusions to the necessity of childbirth in salvation.
It just seems to me that it would be out of place having it as a requirement of salvation - what of the barren women, for example?
Then there's the idea of holiness (along with faith and love) being mentioned in the riders, in the same verse, also. These are all normal fare, amongst which the idea of childbearing sits uncomfortably, whereas the symbology of the fruit of Eve's womb seems better fitting.
It seems too obscure to be a later insertion, so the readers must have had a clue as to what he was writing about.
LittleToe....No, it certainly isn't the whole picture. In fact, the Pastoralist was caught between two conflicting aims: encouraging marriage and childbearing to women who had a habit of verbally participating in church assemblies (2:11-15), to those caught in the "forbidding of marriage" heresy (4:3), and to "young widows" who were really young unmarried women and not "real widows" (5:14), and restricting marriage for bishops (3:2), deacons (3:12), and "real widows" (5:9). It is a little striking that the first group are those posing some problem for the church whereas the latter are the main positions of responsibility in the church.
From the "works" brigade, I'm unaware of there being other allusions to the necessity of childbirth in salvation.
It just seems to me that it would be out of place having it as a requirement of salvation - what of the barren women, for example?
I don't think the Pastoralist could be comprehensive, if he really wanted to. As for the meaning of "salvation", it is a multivalent term and in light of 5:14 I think the author is probably thinking of deliverance from Satan's influence. But since the gnostics believed that refraining from childbearing and marriage was a path towards salvation from death, it is quite possible that the Pastoralist is playing on the other meaning too.
I like your tie-in with the "widows".
I still struggle with the idea of an obscure link of childbirth to salvation, but I do get the nuances you suggest.
I was looking out for this thread, when you made mention of working on it, in a another recent thread.
It was worth the effort - it's a gem!
The Essenes correlated the earth and earthly functions with "corruption" as well, did they not? I figured the sect had to die a natural death, as they had to walk many paces away from their sanctified living spaces to take care of such simple "corrupt" bodily functions as going to the bathroom.
I am glad the gnostics lost. They might have killed off the human race by attrition.
