I read it, Leolaia! It's facinating stuff. I know I need to go over it again (may print it out) as it is hard for my poor brain to absorb all at once.
The status of women in early Christianity
by Leolaia 62 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Kenneson
Leo,
I must admit that I have not completed your essay, but could go no further until I ask this question: Why do you conclude that Junia (or Andronicus) are apostles, rather than just being esteemed by the apostles (eminent among the apostles). If they were Christians (perhaps husband and wife) preceding Paul, as the passage seems to convey, they certainly could have been well known (popular) and liked by the apostles without being apostles, could they not? In other words, were they prominent because they were apostles or because of something else?
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JW83
Leo, I just hopped on the net while taking a break from writing an essay on the rise of monotheism & status of women - now I think you should write my essay for me! I'll just take myself off to the tv, where hopefully there is no discussion on pseudo-Pauline scripture!
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peacefulpete
Leolaia a quick search turned up this quote:
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Albrecht Oepke says:
To be sure, the veil was not unknown in Greece. It was worn partly as adornment and partly on such special occasions as match-making and marriage . . ., mourning . . ., and the worship of chthonic [underworld—bt] deities (in the form of a garment drawn over the head). But it is quite wrong that Greek women were under some kind of compulsion to wear a veil in public. 10
A number of sites remarked that in the Andanian cult at a certain point in the ceremony the women removed their white caps and wore only the wreaths like the men present, uniting them as equals. More than a few have speculated that this type of influence was behind the need for the 'direction' in 1 Cor 11. That is the women were asserting themselves as equals by not wearing the headcovering (veil or cap) when under charismatic influence. I don't have the undersatnding to assess these comments nor the resources to be of more help, sorry.
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the_classicist
I echo the concerns of Kenneson and there appears to be a question whether or not "Iounian" is masculine or feminine. Of course I would say feminine, but there are a few exceptions. Apparently Iunias is a somewhat common Latin nickname.
To quote the Catholic Encyclopedia:
The word Apostle has also in the New Testament a larger meaning, and denotes some inferior disciples who, under the direction of the Apostles, preached the Gospel, or contributed to its diffusion; thus Barnabas (Acts, xiv, 4, 14), probably Andronicus and Junias (Rom., xvi, 7), Epaphroditus (Phil., ii, 25), two unknown Christians who were delegated for the collection in Corinth (II Cor., vii, 23). We know not why the honourable name of Apostle is not given to such illustrious missionaries as Timothy, Titus, and others who would equally merit it.
It's interesting that, in the case of Phoebe in Romans 16:1, she is a diakonon. Now Paul didn't distinguish her as a "deaconness" (which opponents of women's ordination do, to show they were only ancilliary ministers who assisted in baptisms of women), but as a deacon in the masculine. It seems then that 'deacon' in this case, refers to an instituted ministry, which, if that is true, women would've been allowed in this order. Now it is interesting that Jerome translated this as "ministra ecclesiae," whereas in other places, the exact word is translated as "diaconus."
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the_classicist
As a supplement, Canon 19 of the First Council of Nicaea:
Concerning the former Paulinists who seek refuge in the catholic church, it is determined that they must be rebaptised unconditionally. Those who in the past have been enrolled among the clergy, if they appear to be blameless and irreproachable, are to be rebaptised and ordained by the bishop of the catholic church. But if on inquiry they are shown to be unsuitable, it is right that they should be deposed. Similarly with regard to deaconesses and all in general whose names have been included in the roll, the same form shall be observed. We refer to deaconesses who have been granted this status, for they do not receive any imposition of hands, so that they are in all respects to be numbered among the laity.
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Leolaia
Kenneson.....Thank you for the message. Romans 16:7 says literally that Junia and Andronicus were "prominent in the apostles" (episémoi en tois apostolois); it uses an adjective, not a verb like "esteemed", and the en + DATIVE construction most often occurs to indicate location, i.e. Junia and Andronicus were located in the class of apostles. Your alternative interpretation (that Junia and Andronicus were highly regarded by the apostles) assumes a form of agency that would instead be best expressed with hupo + GENITIVE. When we look for examples of the adjective episémos "prominent, outstanding, notable, famous" with a locative preposition, we find that the entities modified by episémos are the distinguished members of a class, not distinguished in the estimation of members of a class external to them:
"Then a certain Eleazar, prominent among the priests of the country (episémos apo tés khóras hiereón), who had attained a ripe old age and throughout his life had been adorned with every virtue, directed the elders around him to stop calling on the holy God" (3 Maccabees 6:1).
"Having placed his hands behind him and having been bound, like a ram (krios) that is most prominent out of a great flock (episémos ek megalou poimniou) to be sacrificed, a burnt offering prepared and acceptable to God, he looked up to heaven" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 14:1; compare 19:1).
"Although the Thracians, the Illyrians, and the other European nations were still inexperienced in monastic communities, yet they were not altogether lacking in men devoted to philosophy. Of these, Martin, the descendant of a noble family of Saboria in Pannonia, was the most eminent of the race (episémos en to genos)" (Salaminius Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History 3.14.38).
"And actually the native of Cyprus was someone most eminent among the lords (episémos en kurioi)" (Gelasius Cyzicenus, Ecclesiastical History, 2.10.1).
"And all these are prominent stars in the zodiac signs (episémoi asteres en zóidión)" (John Camaterus, Introduction to Astronomy, 3076).
In these next examples, the adjective occurs with en + DATIVE, and though the person or entity modified by the adjective is not a member of a class, the preposition is still locative (indicating where he was prominent):
"A man who was living in Rome dreamt that he flew around the city near the rooftops and that he was elated by his adept flying. And all those who looked at him were struck with admiration. But as a result of a certain pain and palpitations of the heart, he stopped flying and hid in shame. An extraordinary man and an excellent prophet, he was eminent in the city" (episémos en téi polei)" (Artermidorus, Oneirocritica, 5.69).
"They will give diseases to each other and suffer excruciating pain in the body in their first lifespan and not have a prominent life in the country (episémos en téi patridi)" (Vettius Valens, Anthologiarum, Appendix 1).
"Her lips are pale and her neck thin and veins are prominent in it (episémoi en autói)" (Lucian, Dialogi Meretricii, 1.2).
The only example I could find that comes close is the following from the Psalms of Solomon, but upon closer examination I think it fits very well with the above pattern (episémói has more of the sense of "conspicuous" here):
"The sons and daughters were in harsh captivity, their neck in a seal, a spectacle among the Gentiles (episémói en tois ethnesin)" (Psalms of Solomon 2:6).
It is possible to say here that the exiled Jews are conspicious from the point of view of the Gentiles. But since these are Jews "in captivity", they are in fact "among the Gentiles" themselves, so the locative en + DAT works here too, I think.
So I think it is quite clear that Junia is designated as an apostle, tho of course the question is what that title refers to as well...
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Leolaia
the_classicist....Actually, the masculine form Iounias is as yet unattested in ancient inscriptions while the feminine form Iounia occurs over 250 times in inscriptions found in the city of Rome alone, and it is found in literary sources as well. For instance, Plutarch (Brutus, 7.1) mentions a Junia who was the wife of Cassius and the sister of Brutus and Tacitus (Annals, 3.69) refers to Junia Torquata who was a vestal virgin during the reign of Tiberius Caesar. The reason why Iounias did not occur as a masculine form of Iounia is because the masculine version of the name in Latin was Junius, not Junias, which would have been transliterated into Greek as Iounios. And indeed, Iounios was widely attested in Greek sources in its various inflected forms: Plutarch (Fabius Maximus, 9.4; Cicero, 19.1; Galba, 4.2), Diodorus Siculus (Bibliotheca Historica, 10.22, 19.77, 24.1), Dionysius Halicarnassus (Antiquitates Romanae, 4.68, 6.70, 7.26), Cassius Dio (Historiae Romanae, 59.18, 62.27), Polybius (Historiae, 1.54, 11.23), Claudius Aelianus (Fragmenta, 110.3), and so forth. So Iounian is not really so ambiguous as it might seem. The only way to get a masculine Iounias out of it is to assume that it was contracted from Iounianos (along the lines of Silouanos < Silas), but there is no actual evidence of the existence of Iounias as a contraction whereas there is copious evidence that Iounia/Iounian was a popular female name at the time. Thus most modern critics as far as I know recognize that Junia was designated as a female apostle in Romans 16:7.
Another possible indicator is the syntactic parallel between the references to Junia and Andronicus and Prisca and Aquila in v. 3: GREETING + FEMALE NAME + kai + MALE NAME. This could suggest that Junia and Andronicus were a married couple like the more famous Prisca and Aquila. Indeed, this is how most patristic commentators interpreted Romans 16:7 (cf. the post-Nicene writers Ambrosiaster, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Theodoret, etc.). John Chrysostom also made the following interesting remark on Junia:
"To be an apostle is something great. But to be outstanding among the apostles -- just think what a wonderful song of praise that is! They were outstanding on the basis of their works and virtuous actions. Indeed, how great is the wisdom of this woman that she was even deemed worthy of the title of apostle" (In Epistolam ad Romanos, Homilia 31.2).
I agree that the title of "apostle" is somewhat ambiguous. It definitely does not refer to the "Twelve", and the sense is likely that found in Philippians 2:25 and 2 Corinthians 8:23, tho the term is invested with so much prestige in Paul (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:5, 12:11) that I don't think the term refers to an ordinary messenger but to a select group of missionaries who work closely with the high-level apostles (like Titus, Barnabas, etc.). In particular, "all the apostles" had witnessed the risen Christ (1 Corinthians 15:7), so at least for Paul the title would have been limited to such privileged people. Another interesting early text on these apostle missionaries is Didache 11:3-6: "Now concerning the apostles and prophets, deal with them as follows in accordance with the rule of the gospel. Let every apostle who comes to you be welcomed as if he were the Lord. But he is not to stay for more than a day, unless there is need, in which case he may stay for another. But if he stays three days, he is a false prophet. And when the apostle leaves, he is to take nothing except bread until he finds his next night's lodging. But if he asks for money, he is a false prophet".
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LittleToe
Leo:
In connection with the Timothy passage, what would you make of this construct:
That therein is presented the order of creation and headship, only? That whereas Adam was to take the lead, in the instance with the tree Eve took the lead (reversing the order), to the demise of the race? That it is not so much a castigation of the deceivability of womankind, as a reflection on "good order" within a composite "mankind"?Further, given then Genesis references, the childbearing having a relation to the "seed" of Gen.3:15? That it was a call to faith in Christ, given the concluding comments of that chapter?
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jgnat
OK, this girl has just GOTTA reply. I am still reading, digesting Leolaia. This is just the type of stuff I keep on hand to have a better picture of what it really was like for the first century Christians. The JW's conjured my latent feminist leanings. It really hit home when the new TMS book came out. Different exams for men and women because, of course, a woman would never give a public talk. I started asking myself "why"?
Lately I am questioning the secondary role of women in my own church. Why are no women Elders? My pastor frequently comments that successful people in the world are rarely utilized in the church, and publicly wondered why? Well, I would easily fit that category. At work I manage a budget far larger than what the church uses to maintain itself. Except I am in no hurry for more responsibility. For now, church is a holiday from the stresses of the week.
I am leaving this thread bookmarked so that I don't lose track in the massive flow of information that is the 'net.