Keep doing this until I return
If Jesus said to keep celebrating the memorial 'until he returned' and he returned in 1914 then why do we still celebrate the memorial? Isn't he here already!?!
Can anyone enlighten me?
That's a good question, Caliban. Whenever faced with a situation such as this, the stock answer is always: "Well in once sense he did return but then again in another sense he hasn't." Or a variation thereof.
There seems to be no shortage of answers to all the questions that come up. The shortage is in the number of CORRECT answers to all the questions that come up.
We seem to have slipped into a very comfortable groove of assigning different shades of meaning to various terms, sometimes even re-defining them altogether, i.e. 'generation'.
Interesting side note: According to Luke's account, AFTER the emblems were passed out, Jesus says: "But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table." Luke 22:21
So by playing with present and past tenses and shading the meaning of various terms it's easy enough to give 'an answer'.
What's your view on the matter?
I think that it was maybe a mis-interpretation right from the start (do we still follow anything that Russell instigated?) but that now it has become a tradition that can't be dropped because so much is made of it.
The memorial talk last year in our hall about who partook of the emblems was all facts and figures and 'how many partook last year' etc... without any reference to the bible at all. I think this is an indication that the whole thing has become institutionalised - maybe it will go the same way as 'the generation' one day?
1 Corinthians 10
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.
Luke 2:41 Every year his parents went to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover.
John 11:55 many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover.
John 2:13 When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem.
(should we not follow this example and go to
(Do JWs celebrate the passover?
is that where the once-per-year comes from?)
"These are the regulations for the Passover: "No foreigner is to eat of it.
Any slave you have bought may eat of it after you have circumcised him.
No uncircumcised male may eat of it.
(do JWs keep circumcision records like the partakers records? what is a foreigner?)
It was just before the Passover Feast
The evening meal was being served
(the annual evening meal?)
so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist.
He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"
Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"
Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you."
(should we not wash each others feet at the memorial?)
Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
(not a part of brooklyn's bible-trained thing)
My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.
Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
You are my friends if you do what I command.
(which of the 3 verses above is most important?)
Help me find a verse that says this is an annual thing. And that only the ones who think
that they are going to heaven should eat & drink.
Or a command that we celibrate his death.
Brothers and Sisters,
I just wanted to express my excitement at the upcoming Memorial. I love the Memorial. I am not really sure why, because, after all, it is a meeting, albeit a different kind of meeting, but still essentially a meeting. But it has always had special significance in my family. We always had a special family study before the Memorial, and, since my Dad usually gave the talk in our congregation, it was an occasion to really discuss and reflect collectively on the meaning of the ransom for our family as he prepared for his talk.
I don't worry so much about the minutiae, like whether we should cease memorializing Christ because he has "returned" to Kingdom power. Until the Kingdom wipes away every tear and death and outcry and pain are no more, we should continue to reflect on the personal and collective importance of the ransom, because we have not finished the race yet; the ransom operates to atone for our sins day to day and, ultimately, it gives us a chance to live in the new system.
A segue to the education thread: In anticipation of the Memorial, I always end up, whether intentionally or not, thinking about whether my actions are consistent with a deep appreciation for the ransom. I realize that it is difficult to appreciate the ransom and make Christ my exemplar and still be a tough, hard-nosed, fearless competitor in school and at work. The reality is, at least in law practice, that if you aren't aggressive, you lose. I wonder how others deal with their work and their Christian obligations daily. One has an ethical obligation to one's clients and business partners to act vigorously to protect their interests, but we are also obligated to be mild, reasonable, and principled. So tough when the world is so unprincipled.
In reply to expressed concerns about being Christian in a tough world, I think all of us can appreciate that. And while it's certainly true that the world today is very difficult to deal with in a Christian manner it helps me to understand that the world has always been difficult to deal with inasmuch as it is ruled by Satan. It's easy enough to be kind and loving and gentle in the Kingdom Hall but that's only because there is trust and love there, a genuine concern for the brothers(well, most of the time!). The true test of what we believe and want comes when we leave the hall and enter Satan's world. That is where our fight is, that is our court case. It's a trial that lasts for your entire life. You will never see the jury but the good news is that if it's an unfavorable decision, you will never know it! :-)
Thanks for your reply. I understand what you are saying, and I want to thank you for helping me think about this in a different way. It's true that our bonds of trust allow us to interact in peace and with understanding. With the world, if you show too much kindness, many will mistake it for weakness. But I suppose the import of your message is that one has to be who one is, even if that means being misunderstood or even hated. You're right. My Daddy always used to tell me, "If I look like a fool, that's ok. I'm happy to be a fool for the Lord." True.
I rejoice with the joy and excitement that you have for the memorial. The reason such an event is joyful is because it is the ONLY meeting that is supposed to be designed to glorify Christ. See, what most do not understand is that throughout all the other meetings, all the attention is directed towards Jehovah, the "earthly organization," and its 'faithful and discreet slave.' Every now and then Jesus will be mentioned, but only as an 'example' to follow and nothing more. May I share something with you? It is concerning the event in Numbers 21:5-9. It is related to the memorial:
Numbers 21:5, 6: And the people spoke against God, and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no bread, and there is no water; and our soul loaths this light bread." And Jehovah sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Numbers 21:7-9: And the people came to Moses, and said, "We have sinned, because we have spoken against Jehovah, and against you; pray to Jehovah, that he take away the serpents from us." And Moses prayed for the people. And Jehovah said unto Moses, "Make you a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he sees it, shall live." And Moses made a serpent of brass, and set it upon the standard: and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he looked unto the serpent of brass, he lived.
The Christ interprets who the 'firey serpent' was. He said, "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man must be lifted up; that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. " (John 3:14, 15)
Now, who lifted up the Son of Man so that we who believe in him will have everlasting life? Was it not the Father? (Acts 3:13, 15; Philippians 2:9) So, just as Moses lifted up the serpent, our Father has lifted up his Son.
Notice our Father's words to Moses in Numbers 21:8 where He says: ""Make you a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he sees it, shall keep alive." Now in Hebrews 12:2, we are told "who" to keep our focus on: " look INTENTLY to Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. "
We have ALL been bit by the Adversary (who is a poisonous serpent). Our Father glorified his Son and said that it should occur that anyone who looks intently at the Son will be KEPT alive. So, in other words, if we take our eys off the Son and look at anything or anyONE else will die. Moses represented the Father. Anyone of the sons of Israel who looked at Moses instead of the copper serpent died. All who looked at the copper serpent, lived. So also today, anyone who focuses their attention on the Father and looks intently at the Father... will die. We are supposed to look at the Son, for only in Him we can have everlasting life (John 5:40; John 14:6).
Jehovah's witnesses usually focus all their attention on the Father, the organization, or its 'faithful and discreet slave.' There is only ONE time out of the whole year where they designed a 'meeting' that was supposed to focus on Christ (the memorial). Hence, dearest Mike, your spirit knows that Christ should be its focus and that is why you rejoice at going to the memorial because the attention will be finally given to Jesus... the only One who can save you (Acts 4:12).
Peace to you,
Ummmm, Aaron? That thread is almost 3 years old bud.
Kansas District Overbeer
That Caliban guy ... sheesh, what a loser ...
(see who knows ... )