Hey TJ,
Man, it sure is nice to talk to someone who is not so darned dogmatic! I compare the extreme defensiveness of Seeker with your conversational post and the difference is stark. He must be doubting the path he chose after the Watchtower.
Anyways, the biggest excuse for evolutionists is that "long time cooking" factor in their recipe. Nevermind that Darwin said the fossil record would prove him either correct or not. So far, it has been a big NOT. The "long time cooking" is also why their dating is so biased and with wide variations. Evolutionists need the cover of a billion years to make their ideas seem reasonable. Actually, they suggest things have happened in their scheme that are on the order of a MIRACLE (GOT THAT SEEKER?).
Too bad that miracles are in God's hands and not theirs!
REx
When God Hides His Face
by teejay 15 Replies latest jw friends
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Rex B13
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teejay
Good evening, Rex.
You said,
Man, it sure is nice to talk to someone who is not so darned dogmatic!
HA! If I learned nothing else in my thirty odd years as a dub (and believe me, I learned more than this), I learned that everything I believe hinges on tomorrow's discovery! <g> I ain't leaning too heavy on any of it.
Don't get me wrong... I can be pretty opinionated when I wanna be, but for the most part I believe that none of us know anything, really, so I ain't gettin' mad at anybody because of what they think or believe. If what you believe... or he believes... or she believes is working for ya'll, then I'm happy for ya. Good for you, as long as I don't have to believe it, too. Aahhh, what a lovely thing, freedom, eh?
... the biggest excuse for evolutionists is that "long time cooking" factor in their recipe... The "long time cooking" is also why their dating is so biased and with wide variations. Evolutionists need the cover of a billion years to make their ideas seem reasonable.
Well, you have to admit that, based on the record, the earth has been here a lot longer than the 50,000 or so years that the Watchtower would have its readers believe. I'm not going to front and try to make it seem that I know a lot about this, but based on all the evidence that I've seen, the Watchtower's time frame is ludicrous. Evolution of lower life forms makes sense.
To me, human physiology presents 'problems' for evolution. In the psych class I just took I learned a little more about how chemicals work in the brain to create emotion, hence, behavior. Every time I learn something about the intricacies of the body it seems to call for a belief in a superior designer/creator. Personally, I can't see my way around it.
Sadly, it's the only evidence, a single piece of a huge puzzle, as it were, that points to a Creator. For me, there is no other evidence, anywhere.
later,
tj -
Copernicus
A very interesting and poignant article TJ, thanks for posting it. It was also very revealing of the mindset people adopt (read: religious fantasy) to cope with the harsh and often inexplicable realities of life.
"I think David and Nancy have been entrusted with something [God] couldn't entrust to anybody else," says one. "I think God is intrigued with your faithfulness," he tells David.
Not meaning to be harsh, I think, sad to say, that the old adage “shit happens” would have covered this situation much more accurately, though of course it’s not nearly as emotionally satisfying as resorting to escapist anthropomorphic delusions. I suppose “God” is equally intrigued with the pointless suffering of countless millions who don’t even recognize him in the Christian context? Oh well, I guess God is funny that way.
Some thought this recommitment may have been part of God's plan.
God’s plan? This somehow involves a personal plan that God has conceived for these people? What utter nonsense. God is nothing if not indifferent. In fact, it would seem to me that indifference IS his premier quality.
But that rationale was more satisfying before the news of this new pregnancy. "Why twice?" asks Bob's widow. "What can God be thinking? Why not give somebody else this experience and let them do some growing?" Nancy says, "I don't think God is obligated to relate His reasons to me."
God is not accountable? How pathetic. Apparently he is the exception to his own rule. He supposedly offers the entire bible to explain his “reasoning”, and yet he’s not obligated to explain his “reasoning.” Does anyone else see an oxymoron here?
TJ said:
Sadly, it's the only evidence, a single piece of a huge puzzle, as it were, that points to a Creator. For me, there is no other evidence, anywhere.
I couldn’t agree more my friend, and I’ve come to exactly the same conclusion. I’ve even gone a little further by viewing the complexity of the human body not as proof of a creator, but as evidence of our own lack of understanding. Just because advanced physics may seem incomprehensible to a four-year-old, there is no need to assume that education won’t eventually resolve the mystery. The same goes for the entire human condition. We’ll eventually find the answers (such as they exist) in knowledge. Will we then be content? I doubt it. As the philosopher (one who Duns doesn’t quote) said: If God didn’t exist, we’d have to invent him. And this article offered exactly the reasons why that is so.
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teejay
Hello, Copernicus,
... sad to say, that the old adage ?shit happens? would have covered this situation much more accurately, though of course it?s not nearly as emotionally satisfying as resorting to escapist anthropomorphic delusions. I suppose ?God? is equally intrigued with the pointless suffering of countless millions who don?t even recognize him in the Christian context? Oh well, I guess God is funny that way.
My thoughts, exactly. Millions of people all over the world, from the time people worshipped the sun and thunder, have lived under the delusion that god took an active interest in their life. (I lived that way myself for a number of years.) The friends and family of David and Nancy are no different.
Of all the people in the article, though, David seems to have the right idea. "The sickness in his children was/is due to genetics, nothing else," he seems to say. Then, his last quote suggests that, like many of us who have become ex-JWs, he seems to be thinking of the big picture, of the world beyond his religious concepts. I wouldn't mind knowing how things turned out with them.
tj
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Copernicus
Hi TJ:
I was glad to see your response to my post. I thought the article was very thought provoking and I’m surprised it didn’t get more of a reaction on the board. I loved the title “When God Hides His Face” – perfect. It said it all in only a few words. As far as I can tell, God (if he exists) has hid his face from this young couple, and everyone else as well. I never could reconcile that with his supposed attribute of love, and now I believe that we have created an imaginary God in our image, not vice versa. Humanity needs to get past this worn out concept, but on to what?
Anyhow, I copied it and sent it off to a long time friend of mine today and we had quite a discussion about it. We came to the same conclusion as you:
Then, his last quote suggests that, like many of us who have become ex-JWs, he seems to be thinking of the big picture, of the world beyond his religious concepts. I wouldn't mind knowing how things turned out with them.
When you get a little distance from this sort of thinking, as we have, the whole thing looks so ridiculous, doesn’t it? Yet, just a few years ago my reasoning would have been similar to theirs. It’s good to be among the sane again, at last, ha, ha.
I’d like to know how things turn out for them also. Unfortunately there is very little comfort in the “big picture” either. No baby Hope waiting for them in heaven, or eventually to be resurrected and returned to them in a paradise earth. It isn’t easy to live with the kind of pain the parents have suffered, I guess I can’t blame them for inventing their own escape hatch, despite the cognitive dissonance that has reduced both of them to basket cases.
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teejay
Copernicus,
I thought the article was very provocative and apropos to this board, also, and am a tad surprised about the lack of response, but not really.
You said,
I loved the title ?When God Hides His Face? ? perfect. It said it all in only a few words. As far as I can tell, God (if he exists) has hid his face from this young couple, and everyone else as well. I never could reconcile that with his supposed attribute of love, and now I believe that we have created an imaginary God in our image, not vice versa. Humanity needs to get past this worn out concept, but on to what?
You've said a lot here. I understand people's interest in seeing god interact in their life. It's very comforting to think that The Creator Himself sees us and takes an interest in what we are doing. As I mentioned earlier, I lived that way myself for many years. The good times were (supposedly) My Heavenly Father's way of patting me on the back, putting wind in my sails, letting me know that he was smiling on me. The bad times I saw as god's way of testing my mettle, seeing what I was made of. I don't belittle those who still think that way, since I was in their boots for so long. Seriously, in a very real way, I envy their simplistic view of reality.
Anyhow, I copied it and sent it off to a long time friend of mine today and we had quite a discussion about it. We came to the same conclusion as you:
(check your email. I sent you the article in its entirety.)
When you get a little distance from this sort of thinking, as we have, the whole thing looks so ridiculous, doesn?t it?
It does... it really does. So many "mysteries" are cleared up when you take the notion of "god" out of the picture. As you said before, sometimes 'shit happens' and it's just that simple. When I was a dub, I wondered for years about many things. Now that I know what (I think) I know, the answers all fall into place.
Unfortunately there is very little comfort in the ?big picture? either. No baby Hope waiting for them in heaven, or eventually to be resurrected and returned to them in a paradise earth. It isn?t easy to live with the kind of pain the parents have suffered, I guess I can?t blame them for inventing their own escape hatch, despite the cognitive dissonance that has reduced both of them to basket cases.
Indeed, that is the deal, Copernicus. Isn't it comforting for them to think that they WILL see their little baby once more? In a real way, they have a better life than I do, since I think I'm more in touch with "the truth", i.e. their baby is gone forever.
[[If you're interested, go to http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=8379&site=3 where I shared with the board an email I sent to my (very inactive) JW sister. Her response to it was basically that she was going to keep believing what our mama taught us, because if it weren't true, she'd probably go crazy. Her comment was ludicrous, but the really sad part is that I understood completely.]]
Thinking that god will one day erase all of the pains we have experienced, all of life's injustices, is hard for people to give up, and frankly, I sometimes wish that I hadn't found out some things, most notably that there probably isn't a god and this life IS all there is. Ignorance is bliss, and one who increases knowledge increases pain, or something like that.
But what am I gonna do? Cry about it? I don't think so. Too late for THAT.
peace, my friend,
tj