Silentlambs and Signifiers that Signify Nothing

by dunsscot 113 Replies latest watchtower scandals

• 

  Tina

  Yanno dunny,
  You are assuming here that there isnt corroraborating evidence to back up charges of molestation.
  And one point that seems to totally escape you is the victims/survivors have the right to choose who they disclose too.
  There are obviously enough cases out there pending thru the court system that satisfy the legal definitions.
  Just who do you think you are that victims should prove this to YOU?
  I will reiterate the wts prescription of biblical exegesis (that you continue to advocate)in these case of extreme trauma are ludicrous and downright damaging.
  CPS are the trained individuals in the position to sort out claims of this nature. THATS why it should be turned over to them.
  Your continued advocation of star chamber tactics is getting really old. Some of the worst apologetcs/excusogetics I've seen in a while!
  Now answer larcs questions if you please.T
• 

  dunsscot

  larc,

  :Duns,
  The girl in your home: there is something wrong - you failed to comment.:

  I hope you do NOT work in the social field since anyone who makes snap judgments like the one you make above truly serves as a threat to all parents or guardians, who seek to rear the children under their care in a salubrious manner.

  You concluded that there is something wrong with the girl staying in my home because I did not reply to your comments? Give me a break! I can already see that some peeps here think there is a molester or fondled child around every figurative corner. I made no comment because the girl IS fine. If there was a problem, my wife and I would do something about it in a very expeditious fashion. Additionally, I was not obliged to make a comment to you--actually, I had already said the problem had been dealt with by my wife and I--because it was really none of your business how the girl is doing. There are folks in my area that I would consult if there was a problem. I don't need someone that hobnobs with Bergman to tell me how to handle a child molestation case.

  :Theological versus Secular Solutions: Theological solutions are appropriate in matters of theology. When a problem threatens the well being of members of society, then a secular solution must be found. In the old Testement, church and state were one and the solution for the kinds of problems we are discussing was stoning. Since the congregation can not establish punishment beyond a policy of not talking to someone, it is up to secular authorities to determine the appropriate punishment.:

  You think a problem is affecting the well being of members of society. That is your mistaken assumption. Frankly, you are sticking your nose where it does not belong, plain and simple, and advocating intolerance toward individuals who want to serve God according to their consciences and in harmony with His Word.

  While you want to bring in secular authorities if there is only a claim of abuse or if the child is "depressed" or, as you later wrote, undergoes a transformation vis-a'-vis his or her personal affect--I am reluctant to bring in authorities, who might unnecessarily smear the name of a righteous brother or sister.

  A few years ago, a man and woman running a daycare in a southeastern U.S. state were accused of child molestation. The husband and wife both vehemently insisted that they were innocent, but to no avail. The upshot of the case is that the couple WAS eventually found innocent. But by that time, the two people's lives were incomprehensibly runined. After all these years, they're still probably recovering (both financially and emotionally). I personally want to keep such problematic situations from developing in the Christian congregation. We must have a win/win policy. Not one that damages the innocent accused while "protecting" the pristine child.

  Lastly, I might just add that a religion in the U.S., has a lot of latitude when it comes to the practice of religion. I do not agree with the Christian Scientists when it comes to seeking medical treatment. In fact, Duns believes that the Christian Scientists unnecessarily put their children in danger when they take such a stand. However, I'm not about to suggests the authorities put their nose in the "tent" of the Christian Scientists. If there really IS abuse, Caesar WILL step in when he deems fit. But I will continue to respect the right of CS to bring up their children as they see fit.

  :Organizational Life: The individual in any organization is expendable. I think your view that your organization is somehow an exception is incredibly naive.:

  Did I say that my organization was an exception to YOUR rule? Please find where I made this comment and show it to me, larc. I think you need to go back and read what I REALLY wrote.

  :Intolerance: Are you talking about me or people in general? Your syntax was not clear on this point.:

  I'm talking about a few people on this board.

  Duns the Scot
• 

  dunsscot

  Larc,

  :Duns,
  There are a number of issues beyond basic theology that should be handled within the congregation. These would be matters that are forbidden by the religion, but are not matters that are legislated as criminal by the state. An example would be cigarette smoking. It is a disfellowshipping offense, but not a criminal offense. At the other extreme is murder, which is both a congegational and a criminal offense. I certainly wouldn't think that you would condone the elders who harbored a murderer. Perhaps you would. I am not sure how far you are willing to extend your loyalty to your organization. I think pedophellia and rape are closer on the contiuum of criminality to murder than they are to smoking.:

  I think even YOU see the flaw in the reasoning employed here. Making an analogy between alleged pedophilia and actual murder is simply absurd. Your "tactics" (to use a Tinerian term) will not work in this instance. If you had drawn a comparison between rape and molestation, your analogy would have been valid. As it stands, it is not.

  The Doctor

  ~P ----> ~Q

  Duns the Scot
• 

  dunsscot

  Dear Tina,

  I thought you were no longer talking to me. What is up with that?

  :Yanno dunny,
  You are assuming here that there isnt corroraborating evidence to back up charges of molestation.:

  With all due respect, Tina-san, have you been sleeping through this entire thread. Not that I could blame you since the prosecution has not produced a scintilla of evidence to verify its severe contentions. The Dunster is used to this type of modus operandi, however. He just wonders when the prosecution WILL bring forth proof to buttress the claims it trots out. Oh, that's right. Wait until Dateline airs a show in 2065. :-)

  Seriously, my original thesis dealt with Silentlambs' insinuations about Sydlik and others who are alleged pedophiles. I asked for verifiable or falsifiable proof of these intimations, but none were to be found in all the land. That is why I'm continuing to emphasize cases where no corrobarating evidence obtains. I am not employing "tactics" (your term) to deflect from the REAL issue.

  :And one point that seems to totally escape you is the victims/survivors have the right to choose who they disclose too.:

  And one point that seems to escape you is that your Weltanschauung is not synonomous with mine. While I am thinking in spiritual terms, and trying to live by the holy Scriptures produced by the ruach of YHWH, you want to think in terms of general human "rights" and secularity. Have at it, my dear. But please allow me to exercise my right to worship God in a way that does justice to Holy Writ.

  I guess what I'm trying to articulate in short is that victims/survivors and ALLEGED victims should consult the elders for spiritual help AND disclose matters to them. Seeking therapy is another matter altogether, as is brining in secular authorities. But I am primarily interested in God's thoughts, dear Tina. I hope you understand. Duns also detests bearing false witness against his neighbor.

  :There are obviously enough cases out there pending thru the court system that satisfy the legal definitions.
  Just who do you think you are that victims should prove this to YOU?:

  Go back and read the first post I submitted to this board, on the said subject, before you continue. You are sadly missing the whole point of this discussion. I am sorry if I do not think it is fine to post double entendres that indicate members of the GB practice(d) pedophilia, while providing zero evidence of these claims. Duns apologizes if he does not believe it is just to exaggerate a pseudo-problem in the JW organization without sufficient warrant. Maybe you think it is okay to ruin an innocent person's life, maybe you would do almost anything to bring down the 'Tower. My conscience will not allow me to harm my fellow man or woman in this way.

  :I will reiterate the wts prescription of biblical exegesis (that you continue to advocate)in these case of extreme trauma are ludicrous and downright damaging.:

  I sympathize with anyone undergoing "extreme trauma" from abuse of any kind. True, the Scot thinks the Bible can heal ALL wounds in due time or at the very least provide salve for them. However, we may at times need the help of a counselor, someone we can talk to and bare our feelings, etc. But I think your view of the Bible or biblical exegesis is "ludicrous." So what? We have two different philosophies of life.

  :CPS are the trained individuals in the position to sort out claims of this nature. THATS why it should be turned over to them.
  Your continued advocation of star chamber tactics is getting really old. Some of the worst apologetcs/excusogetics I've seen in a while!
  Now answer larcs questions if you please.:

  Read the first post, and I think most of the confusion you are currently experiencing will be alleviated in an expeditious manner.

  Affectionately,
  Dan

  Duns the Scot
• 

  WhyNow2000

  Dunscott,

  I present herewith an artless exhortation (five inscriptions to be authentic) from a non erudite person:

  “You need coitus.”

  Translation: Here is a simple advice (five words to be exact) from a common person:

  “You need to get laid. “

  Ps... I am happy to say that it only took me a couple of hours to write this foreign language.
• 

  Tina

  No dearest dun,
  I have not slept thru this thread. I obviously see the bigger picture much differently than you. As far as I see you've totally and deliberately 'missed the boat'. Dear, here's a cup of coffee to help YOu 'wake up'.regards,T
• 

  Maximus

  The question is not, Does a religious organization have the right to impose judicial proceedings on its members? Obviously it does.

  Rather, the question should be, Is it right to impose the jurisprudence of admittedly flawed and untrained humans in an area that is one of the most sensitive of the human condition? Is there a moral imperative that ignores the developed skills of society; that is, we know how to handle it better than they because Holy Spirit has appointed us?

  We have a clear perspective, we who have watched the legalistic monster bludgeon common sense in an idealistic scenario of loving shepherds guarding the flock. That's strictly a supratentorial concept. See the thread Special Judicial Committees.

  To think that Israelites similarly handled delicate issues appropriately is absurd. Unless one thinks that rocks thrown delicately or in a loving spirit, with specific intent to kill, is Christlike.

  Some points from the thread noted above.

  An old hand at sitting on special committees, I can tell you that thoughtful men at some point start to ponder what role Holy Spirit plays in what almost by definition are travesties of justice. One either becomes inured, calloused to the obviously human system, or ripped open inside with the reality that we are enacting some medieval morality play. Through the years, sensitive and thoughtful men start to duck being a part of judicial proceedings.

  We all hope the new Flock book will revamp the system rather than add to accreted policy. Otherwise the org will continue to reap negative consequences. In my experience it is extremely difficult for anyone who has associated for a long time to think in terms of anything other than organization/organization/organization. We see all Scripture through that filter, and even scriptures that apply just to individuals become hugely distorted.

  It's easy to crow about JW "higher standards" of behavior in keeping the organization clean. I've seen many posts stating JWs are no different than Catholics, Episcopalians, Presbyterians and the like when it comes to protecting child abusers. That's simply not true. (Adventists have real problems, but that's another story.)

  It may shock you to learn that Babylon the Great has some very enlightened approaches. I don't have the time to produce an essay on the subject, but I'd like to cite a point or two from a short manual used globally used by one of the groups cited above. It's for those who do any lay teaching or have interaction with small groups within the church. Note the emphasis on individual responsibility.

  While you read it, imagine: Babylon the Great insisting on high moral ethics, individual "Christian" behavior ...

  Two guidelines are given: First, ANY complaint must be taken seriously and dealt with promptly, even from a child. The second is that the leader and the group must not get caught up in keeping secrets or rigid procedure.

  "Most sexual misconduct becomes seriously harmful when the person receiving unwanted attention or abuse is ignored and when the behavior is kept secret. It is important for us, as Christians, to find ways to confront sexual misconduct and abuse in ways that quickly and firmly say, 'No, this behavior is not acceptable and will not be tolerated.'

  "The Christian community must provide clear boundaries and enforce them. ('We are going to notify and cooperate fully with the authorities and seek professional guidance in the matter.')"

  "These situations are not opportunities to become moralistic .... Excessive moralistic 'preaching' often drives the perpetrator into deeper denial, away from accepting responsibility for his or her action and even away from the community in which they can be held accountable."

  Psychopaths/sociopaths are differentiated from "recovering" pedophiles, and even this former category is considered to have need to be "in a covenanted relationship with members of the larger [Christian] community who will help them control their behaviors."

  "The community has to make sure that the individual with uncontrollable behaviors (e.g., having sex with children/youth) always has someone with him or her while in the community, and that a significant number of people are able to be consistent in being absolutely honest with the person about his or her behavior. Recovering pedophiles need a 'buddy system' to function appropriately in the community and to enable the community to be comfortable with and accepting of the person."

  "There is a danger of subtly pressuring the injured person to be reconciled to the offender because it makes everyone feel better. The injured person determines what he or she needs to heal and when she or he is ready for reconciliation. "

  The community must support the injured person in their healing; expect confession, making amends, and "amendment of life" of the offender; and develop ways of enabling the reconciliation of all persons involved.

  "The process needs to be open, honest, and loving, and yet very serious. It will take time and tears and be painful. But it can be both healing for the community and individuals and also helpful for others to see how they too can acknowledge their sins, make amends, seek amendment of life."

  Latter defined as seeking therapy on one's own, joining self-help group; taking medication; removing self from situations such as touching or holding children, change jobs, change lifestyles, whatever it takes.

  "Feel the guilt and sorrow that comes with seeing the pain you have caused; accept responsibility for your actions."

  "The ministry of reconcilation, which has been committed by Christ to his Church, is exercised through the care each Christian has for others."

  I choose not to get embroiled in badinage, but I did want to present this material. I assure readers that the Dateline program will fairly present ample evidence of the flaws in the JW judicial process. Some ugly human aspects will be exposed in the presentation.

  Maximus
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  Regarding the girl in your home: First of all, if her fate is none of my business, then you should not have brought up the subject in the first place. You stated that I make snap judgments. I think it would be better to say that I look for diagnostic indicators. I think for a girl to say a man raped her when he didn't is an "indicator" that she has emotional problems.

  Going to the authorities: One of the major warning signs that a child has mental problems is a change in affect and personality. I did not suggest going to the authorities. I suggested taking the child to a doctor. Either you misread me or you consider doctors to be "the authorities." Perhaps you believe, like many elders, that the appropriate theraputic intervention for mental problems is more time in service and more Watchtower study.

  Bergman: Duns, for a man who prides himself in logic, this is very ignorant, indeed. The fact that I know Bergman has nothing to do with anything. We are not identical twins or clones. We have very different beliefs.

  Privacy in the congregation: if the congregation harbors a pedophile it is society's business. These criminals are not likely to keep their crimes within the confines of the Kingdom Hall.

  Analogy to murder: Duns you're getting sloppy. I did not make an analogy. Reread my words. I said that on a continuum of bad behavior, pedophelia is closer to murder than it is to cigarette smoking. This leads to a question. Once the elders have determined that someone is a pedophile, what should be the punishment?

  False accusations: I am familiar with the case at the nursery that you describe and it is tragic. I do agree that there should be an objective review as joelbear pointed out. Witch hunts are just as dangerous as the sheltering of criminals. Given that the system makes mistakes, I would have to assume that a group of elders make mistakes by an order of magnitude compared to the secular authorities.

  Organizational life: I don't have to reread your words to know what you wrote. You wrote that the organization and the individual have a symbiotic relationship. I think you acknowledge in your last statement, that when the organization is threatened, the individual is expendable.
• 

  dunsscot

  Larc,

  :Duns,
  Regarding the girl in your home: First of all, if her fate is none of my business, then you should not have brought up the subject in the first place.:

  I utilized the example of the young girl in my home to demonstrate how children sometimes misapprehend certain existential phenomena that presents itself to their consciousness. I closed by assuring you the matter had been resolved. Yet you chose to seize on the fact that I made no comment in my next email. I considered the matter closed as far as you were concerned. Thus, there was nothing wrong with me using the little child's words to make a point.

  :You stated that I make snap judgments. I think it would be better to say that I look for diagnostic indicators. I think for a girl to say a man raped her when he didn't is an "indicator" that she has emotional problems.:

  For the record, the young lady staying with us is not a Witness. Her mother leads a very sordid life that I utterly detest, and she has been in and out of relationships with all kinds of men. (The girl sadly told me she had ten fathers!) Admittedly, I think the lass does have some type of emotional problems. It does not mean that she has been raped, however.

  :Going to the authorities: One of the major warning signs that a child has mental problems is a change in affect and personality. I did not suggest going to the authorities. I suggested taking the child to a doctor. Either you misread me or you consider doctors to be "the authorities." Perhaps you believe, like many elders, that the appropriate theraputic intervention for mental problems is more time in service and more Watchtower study.:

  Let's review what you actually said. You started out asking about a child being "depressed" after coming home from a brother and sister's house. You did not initially use the term "affect," but later resorted to it. So who is being sloppy here? Then you suggested that IF the child comes home "depressed," he or she might need to see a professional. I used the word "authorities" because normally if one takes his or her child to a doctor of any kind, there is a good chance the authorites WILL get involved. What is more, taking your child to a clinician or doctor because he or she comes home "depressed" or has undergone a severe change in "affect and personality" is not sound reasoning IMHO. You cannot rightly infer that just because little Suzi visited brother and sister S, and is now "depressed," brother and sister S must have forced her to engage in some type of untoward behavior. I think a parent, who reasoned this way, would be acting way too hastily.

  It is not sound to argue as follows:

  (1) The streets are wet when it rains

  (2) The streets are now wet

  [ergo]

  (3) It must be raining.

  There is a way to resolve the problem you raise. But I do not think your proposed solutions represent either viable or suitable alternatives for the WTS.

  For the record, I have no problem with a child seeing a therapist, if circumstances necessitate that he or she do so. However, you need to remember that we are supposed to be talking about alleged pedophiles (not cases where a child has suffered abuse).

  :Bergman: Duns, for a man who prides himself in logic, this is very ignorant, indeed. The fact that I know Bergman has nothing to do with anything. We are not identical twins or clones. We have very different beliefs.:

  Did you not say that you wrote the foreword to one of Bergman's works? You tell me. If you did, you are not simply guilty of knowing Bergman. You have seemingly put your stamp of approval on his shoddy, ersatz scholarship.

  :Privacy in the congregation: if the congregation harbors a pedophile it is society's business. These criminals are not likely to keep their crimes within the confines of the Kingdom Hall.:

  Who said anything about harboring pedophiles? I asked for proof that Sydlik, Greenlees and others were ever REALLY pedophiles in the first place. When one cannot produce evidence of unsubstantiated rumor, I'm not surprised when he or she attempts to deflect attention from the REAL topic.

  :Analogy to murder: Duns you're getting sloppy. I did not make an analogy. Reread my words. I said that on a continuum of bad behavior, pedophelia is closer to murder than it is to cigarette smoking. This leads to a question. Once the elders have determined that someone is a pedophile, what should be the punishment?:

  But you DID make an analogy. You typed:

  <<<<:Duns,
  There are a number of issues beyond basic theology that should be handled within the congregation. These would be matters that are forbidden by the religion, but are not matters that are legislated as criminal by the state. An example would be cigarette smoking. It is a disfellowshipping offense, but not a criminal offense. At the other extreme is murder, which is both a congegational and a criminal offense. I certainly wouldn't think that you would condone the elders who harbored a murderer. Perhaps you would. I am not sure how far you are willing to extend your loyalty to your organization.>>

  The comparison that you drew was between harboring a murderer and harboring a pedophile. Your signifiers bear witness against you.

  We evidently concur on false accusation, the real issue here, so I'll skip that part.

  :Organizational life: I don't have to reread your words to know what you wrote. You wrote that the organization and the individual have a symbiotic relationship. I think you acknowledge in your last statement, that when the organization is threatened, the individual is expendable.:

  Let's review the comments you made, then look at my reply.

  Larc:Remember one fact of organizational life: the organization is more important than the individual.:

  Duns:I believe there is actually a symbiotic relationship between the individual and the organization. In other words, there is a dialectic interplay between the two modes of being as they vitally subsist for one another.

  Maybe a misunderstanding resulted because we both employed terse phrases to delineate our concepts. I will now expand on what I meant when I articulated the terms above.

  According to one of my dictionaries, "symbiosis" can refer to "a close prolonged association between two or more different organisms of different species." It can also denote: "A relationship of MUTUAL benefit or dependence."

  I think Nicholas Wolterstorff speaks of the "symbiotic relationship" between the art critic and the public. One depends on the other and in some way benefits from the other. Neither the critic nor the public is expendable in this symbiotic relationship: They both need each other in order to subsist.

  Similarly, the organization--any organization--is dependent on individuals within the association. Neither is really more important than the other one, as even the apostle Paul recognizes, when he dictates his elegant rhetorical discourse on the Christian body in 1 Corinthians 12.

  Therefore, I did not say that the organization takes precedence over the individual. A symbiotic relationship indicates the very converse to be true. Like Covey, I think that the optimal intersubjective situation is one of interdependence. How could you think that I placed the organization above the individual in a relational sense then?

  Dan

  Duns the Scot
• 

  larc

  Duns,

  The girl at your house: You said that you only brought that up to make a point. If so, then others should be allowed to ask questions about this case, which I did. I said that a girl who falsely accuses a man of rape may have emotional problems. It is a diagnostic indicator. Your last post indicates that I was right. The girl has a rotten home life. Notice, in this thread and the last one I used the term "falsely accused." Why did you miss that? You mention again that this does not mean that she was raped. I do believe that is what the term "falsely accussed" does mean.

  I will state is again. If a child has a sudden change in affect and/or personality, this is a "diagnostic indicator" that something is wrong. I did not say it meant that the child was abused. If the parents can't figure out the problem with a few questions, they should seek medical advice. The problem could be anything from a vitamin deficiency to rape and a whole myriad of possibilities between these extremes. For a parent not too seek professional advice is irresponsible.

  Bergman: In the forward, I state my disagreements with Gerry, which are significant. He chose to include it anyway.

  Sydik and Greenlees: Since I never wrote on this subject, why don't discuss this on another post, rather than commingling it with your comments to me.

  Organizations: You did not need to define what symbiosis means. I fully understand the term. I also am fully aware of the relationship between the individual and an organization.