Discussion of Mysticism and Interesting thought by Rudolf Stiener

by frankiespeakin 77 Replies latest jw friends

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Terry,

    Well that is an interesting challenge, alright, and a Million Dollars is certainly a lot of money.

    One thing I would like to know beforehand. What are the ground rules? For example, when it comes to testing, is he going to state that his rules are the only ones he will accept for purposes of validating the phenonemon? Or are we dealing with a kind of stacked deck here, all in his favour?

    I keep harping on one important consideration here: Science does not have all the answers. What you call being "testable" or "verifiable" may in itself be biased or at least, less than objective. So then, who gets to be the judge, especially when it comes to things of the paranormal? There are so many things we and science do not understand yet. But that does not necessarily mean the phenomena are not real. In that case, we need to at least leave some room for the possibility of something really going on here, even in the absence of definitive measurement or explanation. This is somewhat like courtroom, where a case may be decided based on the preponerance of the evidence, in the absence of absolute hard evidence.

    Hence, I am suspicious of Randy's motives. He is already hell-bent on not believing, and there are none so blind as those who WILL NOT see. If he does see an effect or phenomenon, he simply goes about debunking it by using "Magic" which is nothing more than "Illusion" to begin with, and from there concludes for the rest of us that this is all hokum. I am not the least interested in playing the game on those terms, and that does not mean I am copping out either. This has to be fair for everyone concerned.

    A good example is the topic of UFO's. and project Blue Book. There were some scientists on that panel who resigned precisely because of the cover-ups and manipulations of the facts that were going on. They lost their objectivity, and now there are a ton of people out there who are absolutely convinced they and the government is not to be trusted, and there is some justification to this. There is a lot of this kind of thing going on. The deck is pretty well stacked against the masses by the powers that be, because the governments threaten dismissal to anyone who divulges many of their secrets that would otherwise shed real light on these kinds of things.

    Rod P.

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Rod:
    The ground rules are that things are set up as Randi likes them, rather than how the mystic like them (coz he's paying the money, right?). He's made his name by "debunking" mysticism, and is hardly likely to want anyone walking away with his loot.

    "Testing" would be in a laboratory, with cameras stuck in your face, and surrounded by skeptics. Those aren't exactly condusive surroundings to getting in any kind of "zone".

    I'd love to see someone do it, though

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    I did a brief search on the net looking for something on PSI (ESP). And of course a lot of the site were there to make money and sell you something, so I read some sites looking for some names of someone with an accademic backround and came up with the name of a Cornell University psychology professor Daryl Bem, so I thru that into google and he has a site with alot of article on it not mainly about PSI but other subject heres the link and a small clip:

    http://www.dbem.ws/psi_world.html

    Bem, D. J. (1994, August). Does Psi Exist? The World & I , 215-219.

    Does Psi Exist?

    Daryl J. Bem
    Cornell University

    Recent laboratory research suggests that parapsychologists might finally have cornered their elusive quarry: Reproducible evidence for psychic functioning.

    Reports of psychic phenomena are as old as human history. Experimental tests of psychic phenomena are almost as old. According to Herodotus, the ancient Greek historian, King Croesus of Lydia dispatched several of his men to test seven oracles to see if any of them could divine what he, the king, was doing on the day of the test. Only Pythia, priestess of Apollo at Delphi, was able to divine correctly that the king was making a lamb and tortoise stew in a bronze kettle.

    Convinced of her powers, Croesus then posed the question that really interested him: If he attacked the rival kingdom of Persia, would he be able to defeat its army? Pythia replied, "When Croesus has the Halys crossed, a mighty empire will be lost." Insufficiently alert to the ambiguity of this prediction, Croesus crossed the river, attacked, and lost his mighty empire. Evaluating "psychic" data is a risky business.

    The contemporary technical term for psychic phenomena is psi. More precisely, psi denotes anomalous processes of information or energy transfer, processes that are currently unexplained in terms of known physical or biological mechanisms. These processes include extrasensory perception (ESP), the acquisition of information without using the known senses, and psychokinesis, the ability to affect physical objects or events without the intervention of any known physical force.

    In turn, ESP comprises the following:

    • Telepathy. The transfer of information from one person to another without the mediation of any known channel of sensory communication.
    • Clairvoyance. The acquisition of information about places, objects, or events without the mediation of any of the known senses (for example, Pythia's knowledge that the king was making stew).
    • Precognition. The acquisition of information about a future event that could not be anticipated through any known inferential process. (Pythia's prediction about the loss of an empire, although dubious, is an example.)

    Serious scholarly investigation of psi began in 1892, when a group of scholars in London founded the Society for Psychical Research (SPR) to

    investigate that large body of debatable phenomena designated by such terms as mesmeric, psychical and spiritualistic...without prejudice or prepossession of any kind, and in the same spirit of exact and unimpassioned inquiry which has enabled Science to solve so many problems, once not less obscure nor less hotly debated.

    The SPR was active until the early years of the twentieth century when many of the original founders had died and enthusiasm declined.

    Contemporary psi research is usually considered to have begun in 1927, when Joseph Banks Rhine and his wife/collaborator, Louisa, arrived in the psychology department at Duke University in Durham, North Carolina. Rhine's experiments, which tested for ESP with decks of cards containing geometric symbols, became well known to the general public in 1937, when he published New Frontiers of the Mind. The book received widespread press coverage and became a Book-of-the-Month Club selection. Even today, many Americans know of Rhine's work.

    Since Rhine many parapsychologists have reported positive psi results using a wide variety of experimental procedures. Yet, most academic psychologists are not yet persuaded that the existence of psi has been established.

    Searching for a repeatable experiment

    In science generally, a phenomenon is not considered established until it has been observed repeatedly by several researchers. This criterion has been the source of the most serious criticism of parapsychology: that it has failed to yield a single reliable demonstration of psi that can be replicated by other investigators. In 1974, an experimental procedure was introduced that holds out the promise of supplying that repeatable demonstration: the ganzfeld procedure.

    By the late 1960s, several parapsychologists had become dissatisfied with the repetitive forced-choice procedures pioneered by Rhine, believing that they failed to capture the kinds of psi experiences that people report in everyday life. Both historically and cross-culturally, psi has usually been associated with dreaming, meditation, trances of various kinds, and other altered states of consciousness. This suggested that psi information may function like a weak signal normally masked by the sensory "noise" of everyday life. Thus, altered states of consciousness may enhance a person's ability to detect psi information simply because they reduce interfering sensory input. Psi researchers first sought to test this hypothesis by adapting the ganzfeld procedure, a mild sensory isolation technique first introduced into experimental psychology during the 1930s.

    In a ganzfeld telepathy experiment, one subject (the receiver) rests in a reclining chair in a soundproof chamber. Translucent ping pong ball halves are taped over the eyes and headphones are placed over the ears. A red floodlight is directed toward the receiver's eyes and white noise is played through the headphones. (White noise is a random mixture of sound frequencies similar to the hiss made by a radio tuned between stations.) This homogeneous visual and auditory environment is called the Ganzfeld, a German word meaning "total field." To quiet "noise" produced by internal bodily tension, the receiver is also led through a set of relaxation exercises at the beginning of the ganzfeld period.

    While the receiver is in the ganzfeld, a second subject (the sender) sits in a separate soundproof room and concentrates on the "target," a randomly selected picture

  • Rod P
    Rod P

    Little Toe,

    I am going to dip my "little toe" into Randy's website and try to get a handle on precisely what he expects. At the same time, I am going to review a few other phenomena besides spoon bending that I think would best serve to illustrate that something real is going on, and is not all mumbo-jumbo and myth.

    Don't expect me to be ready later today.

    Rod P.

  • Markfromcali
    Markfromcali

    Frankie:

    Isn't Wilber supposed to be enlightened?

    Umm.. According to who? And actually whether he is or not is not particularly relevant to the point, because frankly the way he writes you can at best get a sense of whether he is intellectually awake, which again is not the only game in town. I have read some of his journal, One Taste I think and read a tiny bit of Boomeritis, his novel, but frankly my impression is just that he's a pretty smart guy. And I'm sure he is not trying to convey the state of enlightenment through his writings, it's basically this kind of outline of things and some observations in regards to dominant attitudes of seekers like the idea of boomeritis. If you compare that to the more potent expressions found in the traditional writings whether it's zen koans, Rumi or something like that, you'll find the latter has a sense of immediacy when you get it. One does not get a sense that these guys are at all interested in mapping the spectrum of consciousness, it's more like know where the ground is first, where you're standing and then you can walk - when that is not there having a map is irrelevant.

    I know there is an older one, Grace and Grit, which has to do with his ex-wife's struggle with and death from cancer, that might be more interesting. I haven't read this one so I don't know what it's like, nor am I implying this is what's going on with Wilbur, but I gotta say all too often you have intellectual spiritual people who might have moments where their hearts are touched but then their minds kind of run amok, and it's evident because the mental activity is just so far removed from the initial experience, they just don't realize they've actually moved farther away from it. And actually in that case it is clear the mind isn't what needs to be developed, or awakened, but rather the heart is. Not that they are so separate, but there is clearly a difference between intellectual development without heart and with. It's interesting to note that some traditions state you progress is accelerated when the heart opens up, one that immediately comes to mind is the Sufis, and even if it's not explicitly stated you can see where it comes into play in other traditions.

  • Terry
    Terry
    DOES PSI EXIST?

    http://www.skepdic.com/comments/psi2com.html


    At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."

    To date, no one has ever passed the preliminary tests.

  • Terry
    Terry

    From the Skepdic page (Skeptic Dictionary)

    09 Aug 1996
    I am curious why you spend so much time and effort to produce the pages to disclaim the paranormal. For some reason the subject seems to draw you. I think you should look into the real world and not the view you get from a lab. The reason psychic phenomena is hard to study in a lab, is because it is not a constant. Science can only analyze constants. If there are two many variables science usually fails. I am a believer in science but in this instance it seems to have failed. Maybe it hasn't. Duke and Berkley seem to have given some credence to parapsychology.

    I wish, you as a scientist, would look at everything with a more open mind and realize that everything is not studied in a lab.

    Tommy

    reply: What follows from your line of reasoning? That the facts that psi researchers can't get consistent results unless they cheat, can't duplicate any experiment, can't do anything more useful with their powers than predict card numbers or spots, or bend keys, and can't prove anything, are to be taken as strong evidence for the belief that psychic phenomena "is not a constant." Perhaps. But it seems more reasonable to me that this is evidence that psi is non-existent.

    Are we also to accept as a reasonable explanation for the fact that good, incontrovertible evidence for the existence of Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, etc., is because these phenomena "are not constant." What belief couldn't be defended by this notion? Every contradiction in the universe could be equally justified if we could assume your inconstancy principle.

    Now, in human affairs, it is a different story. Inconstancy may be the only constant in human affairs.

    (end)

  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Terry,

    Talk about a rigged test this one surely is look at the wording very closely it is ridiculas:

    At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. The JREF does not involve itself in the testing procedure, other than helping to design the protocol and approving the conditions under which a test will take place. All tests are designed with the participation and approval of the applicant. In most cases, the applicant will be asked to perform a relatively simple preliminary test of the claim, which if successful, will be followed by the formal test. Preliminary tests are usually conducted by associates of the JREF at the site where the applicant lives. Upon success in the preliminary testing process, the "applicant" becomes a "claimant."
    Rigged from the get go. Terry I'm surprised you even fall for it.
  • frankiespeakin
    frankiespeakin

    Qoute Krisnamurti on the chapter "IS INTELLIGENCE AWAKE?":

    What is the relationship between intelligence and thought?

    The Limitations of conditioned thinking. No new movement can take place if the 'old Brain' is constantly in operation. "I have been go south thinking I was going north". The perception of the limitations of the old is the seed of intelligence. Is the "new" recognisable?The different dimension can only operate through intelligence.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    how is that "rigged"?

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