Theological question: When did God create the Devil if...

by logansrun 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    St. Augustine speculated that God exists outside of time. This viewpoint would seem to make sense in our modern understanding of physics since time is dependent upon space; time is not an absolute, and it is not linear. God, according to Augustine and other theologians, sees all of history as one eternal present moment. Of course, I can understand the concept, but I cannot understand what this really means, what it really feels like, just as I can't really understand what it means that time is space dependent, or that time slows down as one approaches the speed of light.

    My question, though, is this: If God created the angels -- including the angel who became the Devil -- did he do this outside of time as well? Are the angels -- and the Devil -- in time or outside of time? If they are in time, what sense of time? Time as it is perceived by us humans living on a planet of such-and-such size travelling at such-and-such speed, hence creating a certain quality of time? (Which would imply he created them on this planet -- which doesn't make sense). Or some other "realm" of sorts in time?

    Or, what if God created them outside of time. That would mean that they too experience all of eternity as one gigantic NOW. If so, in what way could it be said that a certain angel became the Devil (as this would imply a linear progression in time towards sin and rebellion)?

    I'm not saying I believe in any of this, nor am I asking for silly comments like "it's all bullshit, don't waste your time." I can come up with that answer myself. I'm looking for a serious discussion here.

    B.

  • RunningMan
    RunningMan

    In 2 Samuel chapter 24, God tempts David to take a census. This was a bad thing. But, back in those days, God was responsible for absolutely everything - the good and bad.


    Well, time passes. After the writing of this story, the Israelites are captives in Babylon, where they learn all sorts of things. For example, they hear about the Persian idea of an ultimate evil spirit to rival God. This sounds like a good idea.


    After they return, someone writes another version of the David census story. In 1 Chron 21, the story is repeated, but this time, it is Satan who tempts David.


    The Israelites developed from polytheists (let US make man in our image) to monotheists, and later populated the spirit realm with all sorts of beings, many of them courtesy of the big bad Babylonians.

  • logansrun
    logansrun

    Running Man,

    I am fully aware of the secular, historical/critical approach to Biblical study. My question is more for the believers here. Thanks for the reply, though.

    B.

  • googlemagoogle
    googlemagoogle

    it's all bullshit, don't waste your time.

    ;-)

    seriously though, i don't believe there is a NOW. NOW does not exists, as soon as something moves there's only past. if NOW exists, it must be eternally short. which is hard to grasp i guess. eternally... so as soon as god sees some animation on earth or moves his finger, he entered time.

  • FairMind
    FairMind

    Since it?s all speculation I?ll give it a shot. Time only exists in the physical universe that GOD created, so GOD is out side of time. The place/dimension where GOD is that is outside of time is what the Bible describes as ?Heaven?. When the heavenly creatures enter our physical universe they experienced time. As an old country and western song says, time don?t mean a thing to them because they still have life to go. When they enter the presence of GOD they leave the realm where time exists. The Devil and his demons though are now trapped in the physical universe and therefore are experiencing time with a death sentence in view.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Yes I was told similar....

    That whether physical or spirt in nature... life depends on a constant "link" to the Creator. This link is shut off by "sin". So humans being much less powerful than spirits (coal burner vs. nuclear power) just run out of juice quicker... Spirit creatures (fallen) would eventually run out of juice (die) too if left long enough...

    This is interesting... but traditional theology always says "God" didn't create the Devil. He made himself the Debil. I believe you're thought has some merit due to the fact that it has mathematically been proven that it's VERY POSSIBLE AND PROBABLE that other planes of existence are a reality. We just don't fully understand them... how spirit creatures can go from the "spirit" realm to the "physical" realm is a mystery and must require a lot of energy. It must be difficult to maintain to... as you're forcing oil to mix with water so to speak.

    Time is definitely a commodity of the "physical" realm. I just don't understand why Devil the Satan has been given so much of our kind of time and we (supposedly made for this realm) are so short lived- and seriously glutted with agitation!

    If "God" could send His Son to Earth, why can't Debil da Satan do the same? You'd think one of the adversarial foes could speak up and clue us in.... there is so much missing from this picture...

    Sorry I don't have much, if any wisdom to contribute... I'm not MENSA material. But I enjoy it.

    u/d (of the stands on the shoulders of others to see class)

  • LongHairGal
    LongHairGal

    It makes perfect sense to believe that God exists outside of time - or in another dimension. I guess he would have to because doesn't the bible say that nobody could see him and live. How does he hide his "glory"? Astronomers can see very far into the universe and haven's seen God. He must exist in a realm that can't be seen.

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    OK LDS answer:

    Satan, Jesus, God the Father and us - all the same - all 'intelligences' and are not created - have existed eternally. We become a family in heaven at some point before the earth was created with God as our father. This universe teams with life and intelligences going through the same process we are (spiritual eternal beings becoming a living soul ie have a physical body, this body and life are short term finally ending with a resurrection with the long term joining of body and spirit - eternal life.) Some intelligences disagree with this pattern - in our case we know of Lucifer doing this and 1/3 of all the intelligences in heaven are then cast out - this means they don't get a body. Satan is Lucifer's new name and so you could count this point as the time when Satan was created but it was a self creation rather than God doing it.

    This rebellion in heaven happended before the creation of the earth - not 1914 in LDS thinking.

  • mnb77
    mnb77

    totally some thing to make me go hummm....

    I do believe that God is outside of time (meaning that he doesn't feel time as we do with growing old and such) but I do believe that there has been a progression of things that have occured in the heavenly realms (in Daniel where dan prayed an the angle was delayed in giving him the answer, and where the devil (former angel) was spued from heaven, mentioned in rev. but happened before gen.) I do think that god as JC came to earth as our perfect attonement, taking on our time suits (bodies) so he would be a perfect canidate to deal with our type of sin.

    A big giant Now is like when we were kids...everything was as we perceived it in the moment then.

    i think the spirit (gloified body) world will be a bunch coasier than here.

    mnb77

  • JamesThomas
    JamesThomas

    Are we just distracting ourself here from discovering if it is WE who exist outside of time?

    alt

    j

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