Two Camps, always Two Camps!

Blueblades

Does God Exist? Camp One: Yes!, Camp Two: No!

Were we Created, or, Evolved, or, both? Camp One: Yes! Camp Two: No! We were Created, We are products of Evolution, We were Created, then Evolved.

Camp One, Design proves that there is a God.Camp Two, No it doesn't!

Camp One,Wait we have a book that says it is from God. Camp Two,The book's internal writings demonstrate it is not from God.

Camp One, There is life after death. Camp Two, No, when your dead, your dead.

ON and ON it goes. So, do you pick sides, which Camp are you on? Or, do you make your own conclusions.

Me, I have concluded from my reasoning, that there is something ,someone, beyond our comprehension that started it all Creation / Evolution. .And that some kind of life goes on after the physical body dies. I have concluded, that the book, Bible, is a history book of a people, it is not from God, just as all the other books of history are of a people telling their story.

And yet, I am still restless, because I can't prove anything that I reason on. Both camps are entitled to their beliefs, as are YOU and I.

I really wish that I could settle down and take life as it comes, one day at a time, but I find myself constantly in turmoil in my mind, ever since I have become inactive for the past three years.I can't seem to shake this turmoil. This after 30 something years of feeling secure in my pass beliefs in the Society.I now know with a certainty that the Society does not represent God.

Before the Society, I was a believing Catholic, going to heaven ( or somewhere else ) when I die! Not anymore.I think that I'm in limbo at this time in my life, neither here or there.

Are you also going through what I have expressed here?

Blueblades

Bas

well, I'd be in camp two, but it's the camp for realists and reality isn't always pretty. Besides I still think there must be something more, like alien intelligence or a common enlightenment that humanity has not yet reached. It has all to do with this inner urge to have a reason for life, something mystical to believe in, even the most hardcore atheists have these needs and doubts eventhough they say they do not.

"atheist class" Bas

Mac

Bullshit....

it's like when I was in band camp.....

mac

iggy_the_fish

I used to worry myself an awful lot about evolution/creation, god/no god/little green men etc. And then over the course of some time I began to think that God (if it was even in existance) didn't seem to mind if I believed in him or not, and that if I was supposed to have my own answers to great religious questions, then they ought probably be a little bit more possible to answer. I'm sure I'm a good deal more stupid than many of the people most entranched on both sides of the great religious questions, so what chance do I stand, and why bother if it's not that important - I could better spend my time doing all sorts of things I enjoy, than getting ANOTHER evolution book out of the library (the subject bores me rigid sometimes!)

And then one day, hey presto, I was a committed evolutionist/athiest, but only after I thought that God wouldn't mind if I was. Go figure!

ig.

tetrapod.sapien

hey blueblades,

i felt terribly confused about this for a while too. and although i am no longer that confused about it anymore, it doesn't mean that i will 'never' be confused again in the future. that would be presumtuous of me.

as far as the theory of evolution is concerned, among scientists it is a solid theory, and rarely debated among them. however, with regards to the existence of gods, as you know, there is much debate among theologians, philosophers and logicians. i personally ended up falling on the side of "weak" atheism, which is basically just a lack of a belief in god. and knowing that others all hold their beliefs as dearly as i do mine, i do not spend much time debating something that it is impossible to have a 100% answer to. however, as far as the probability of gods is concerned, one tool of logic that helped me is Occam's Razor. perhaps you have heard about it. it basically says that in a situation where there is more than one argument for a given phenomenon, the argument that makes the fewest assumtions should be the preferred one. that is not to say that occams razor provides the truth on a matter, but it does help one with probability of truth in the absence of hard evidence. here is the wiki link. i personally decided that the probability of the existence god was less than the probability of non existence. again, the answer is not final, but it gives me some direction, IMHO. another related tool that helped me is the "god of the gaps" tool. it basically states that as our knowlege as a species increases, and science answers more and more for us, the gaps that we cannot explain, and that some people use to justify the existence of a supernatural power, become smaller and smaller. this follows a pattern down through history, where at one time we ascribed all things not understood to god, but science has been pushing him into smaller and smaller gaps ever since. this helped me to rationalize that we may not be able to explain all of gods gaps with science now, but if the pattern is to be continued, god will eventually have no place left to reside. therefore it is a likely probability that he may not exist.

this was all very hard for me to rationalize after being a JW. but there are some very well written books that helped me along in this process. i would be happy to recommend them if you like. and i just want to say, that it is a good sign that you are restless. whatever you end up concluding, you will have concluded this yourself, and that is healthy.

New Worldly Translation

I understand your feelings exactly. The trouble is no-one has all the answers but I tend to disbelieve those who have a bias or ulterior motive for offering their resolutions. Some scientists have a bias but it's mainly religionists who are the main culprits. At least for a scientific hypothesis to be truly vindicated there has to be tangible proof but for a religious thought all that's needed is faith. Of course science has no real answers to a lot of things like life after death, the supernatural, how everything began etc.

It's hard to figure out where we figure personally in the grand scheme of things and whether we are just part of the cosmic cycle of life and death and we are no more important in the universe than an animal or a tree. Maybe it's egotistical to think so but we, the human race, seem to be worth more than that. Possibly is it's in our own hands to prove that and by having open enquiring minds the human race can move forward and learn more about what life and the universe is really all about.

I don't think the answer will come in my lifetime but I feel if I have lived a good honest life and have taken in as much knowledge as possible and made some accomplishments I can be proud of then I have done all I can do. Hopefully by many people doing the same and many doing more by reshaping knowledge and accomplishing much greater things we are always moving forward.

The trouble with religious promises is they are always reliant on personal salvation at the expense of others based on arbitrary rules. Maybe it's a togetherness and peacefulness of everyone that's needed to earn God's love. I don't know, I'm still working it all out like you are. At the moment I don't believe in God in the biblical sense but that maybe there is a higher intelligence. I believe that evolution on the whole is correct but beyond that going back to how the universe came into being or how life sprang up I'm not sure.

After being a JW it's incredibly difficult to let go of thoughts and promises that were so real to us for so long. I've been out about 3 years too the same as you and I'm thinking maybe we are in a settling down period. After having our world shook up when leaving the JW's we are in the process of finding our niche and can then re-evaluate our hopes and goals in life. I take consolation in the fact that I may not know where the road I'm on is taking me but it's better then the one I was on before.

I don't know if you've ever read any of Thomas Paine's writings but he expressed some of the issues you had in your post. The Age Of Reason is very interesting especially since he wrote it about 300 years ago. Here's a link if you wanted to have look -

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

JW83

Hi, I'm pretty similar to Ig.

I'm now an agnostic, because I think that that is the only sensible option! We don't know, nobody has ever known, and I should probably accept that humans will not know the 'truth about everything' in my lifetime. I only have one life, & it is my responsibility to make the most of it! That doesn't mean that you have to shut off from all religious/scientific/philosophical talk - just engage in it with a raised eyebrow & a glass of wine!

ChrisVance

And then one day, hey presto, I was a committed evolutionist/athiest, but only after I thought that God wouldn't mind if I was. Go figure!

iggy_the_fish, thank god you're an atheist.

iggy_the_fish

yes, I'd never looked at it like that!

donald

its also call the right vs the left....donald

Two Camps, always Two Camps!

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