Most disgusting thing from Watchtower Corp.

by spectromize 35 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  waiting

  Hey circare,

  Always enjoy chatting with you - that's the only way we all toss around ideas!

  However, criticising the WTS Corp. for acting as a business corporation does not make a lot of sense to me. They do not claim to be anything else but a business org. for the financing and organising of the publishing and preaching work of the religious organisation Jehovah's Witnesses.

  That is not the only way the WTBTS acts as a business corporation. Right now, there is a nasty child sexual abuse case going before the Supreme Court with the WTBTS having to defend itself and its elders for allowing a confessed sexual offender to remain as a brother in good standing, and to my knowledge, not notifying the police (may not have been law at that time.)

  [url= http://jehovah.to/legal/general/bryanr.htm]Bryan R. v. Watchtower Bible and Tract Society[/url]
  This case has also been discussed on h2o, and I believe, Witnesses.net. There are other experiences of sexual abuse dismissed by the WTBTS, and/or by the elders, btw. Many found on the web, several happened within my family and within my congregation and within this forum.

  They have a large Legal Department to defend themselves against every conceivable situation - including their own sheep. I know, due to a business deal with our local body of elders gone very badly, our lawyer had the occasion to speak with one of their lawyers. And he was given the "run around" and a fine sermon on Mathew. Nothing, however, was said about the merits, just the lack thereof, of our situation. The Legal Department and Service Department told our Circuit Overseer not to speak to us. They would handle us. He told us this after calling Bethel. That has been 1.5 years ago and the silence from them continues. We got the idea.

  Their lawyer did say, however, that we could sue our PO - said elders were sued all the time. That was not the WTBTS's problem. (meaning sue them - not us). They also said that elders were not "ordained ministers" and as such, the WTBTS was not responsible for their actions, being legal or breaking the law (meaning sue them - not us).

  In other words, the WTBTS Corporation looks after themselves and earns money for the organization called Jehovah's Witnesses. We, being sheep, and under the care of unordained ministers, are left to fend for ourselves.

  Isn't this situation quite similar to what Jesus condemned the pharisees for? The people were sheep without a shepherd? A sheep, as a lamb, would be spoonfed - and that's fine - he doesn't necessarily understand the ramifications of what is being shoved down his throat - he just opens his mouth and the shepherd puts it in.

  As he grows older, he becomes more selective - perhaps he doesn't agree with what's being spoonfed him anymore? Does the shepherd have the godgiven right, godgiven mandate, to throw him out because of this?

  If the shepherd is shepherding the flock, and one of the sheep decides to be real nasty and attack another lamb, and the lamb complains - does the loving shepherd say "I have no control over this sheep - even though I spoonfed the lamb into believing this sheep has God's spirit and should be obeyed." Does the shepherd turn a deaf ear to the crys of injustice?

  There is always a problem when religion mixes with big business - the WTBTS has told us so. The WTBTS has done this, and now they should answer for their actions - just like they decry the churches of Babylon the Great for doing the same. They are, in fact, acting the same. They told us they were different - and demanded us to behave differently. They are behaving indecently, imho.

  I will politely, or impolitely, continue to learn and discuss the WTBTS and the Bible. Perhaps I'm passed the spoonfed phrase of my spirituality. The WTBTS turned me away when I was in need - not fair to cry wolf when I, or thousands of others, speak outloud of their actions against us.

  They started the game when they called themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave (Charles T. Russell). We just continue to play by expanded rules.

  waiting - sorry for being so wordy - religion just get a person thinking, huh?

  Edited by - waiting on 31 August 2000 8:18:22
• 

  circare

  Hi waiting. Thanks for sharing those thoughts. Religion does get you thinking.

  I have been following the discussions, at H20, Witnet and here, for some time, about the cases of child abuse, including the link you gave to the case of Bryan R v.WTBTS. Legally I think the WTBTS are behaving as a Corp. should to protect its' interests. I have no problem with this; I expect them to behave, as would any other legal corp. However, as you brought out, morally and spiritually we can have different expectations.

  Society at large is changing its' opinion as to how paedophiles and child abusers should be treated in the general community, albeit too slowly; and the JWs have been as backward in this area as the rest.

  I am sorry that you ever had to experience such things as a child. It should not be so. It is vile and disgusting to rob children of their trust and innocence in this way. Hopefully these dreadful past wrongs will be righted in some way. As importantly, hopefully, we as a society in general will develop a better way to deal with these people as they deserve and learn better ways of protecting children from becoming victims. We have a long way to go with this yet.

  I am also sorry for your experiences with your local cong. elders and the continuing saga to right the situation. Unfortunately the western society's judicial systems very often do not give justice. While I have some respect and interest in its' convoluted laws once again we have a system that is a slave to itself and not necessarily the people it is supposed to serve.

  Perhaps as I grew up 'in the truth' I was given a different perspective than others like you and Red and R.Cat. I only expected the organisation of JW's, 'in this system of things', to behave as imperfect humans with all the same problems as the world of humans that they live amongst. The only times I have seen any evidence of something more are times of crisis and when it comes to the furthering of the preaching work. When it comes to the individual condition of the 'sheep' I have never seen anything greater in evidence than the human beings themselves. This perspective is one that I have been 'at odds with' with some members of my family since I was very young. I think that sometimes people see what they need to see in these areas.
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Circare, I DID grow up in the "truth", and for the longest time I felt as you do....that the organization, its leaders and its members should only be expected to behave as imperfect humans.

  However, the hypocrisy continually ate at me. The WTBTS would constantly hold up any imperfect actions of other religions to ridicule and censure...stating how these "human imperfections" were evidence that these religions were not of God, but rather in league with Satan. Meanwhile, they would speak out of both sides of their mouths.....on the one hand telling us to dismiss wrongdoing of those in power as simply being evidence of human imperfection; and on the other hand touting their guidance by Holy Spirit which made them so much better and on a higher plane than the religions of Christendom.

  Perhaps that attitude has moderated somewhat. I have noticed that the WTBTS is going more mainstream all the time. However, when I was growing up in the 60's, the "holier-than-thou" attitude was very prevalent.
• 

  circare

  Sorry Red and RF didn't mean to ignore your posts. In my 'speed read' I missed your comments on the bottom of the previous page.

  I agree, the FDS claims to be the channel of spiritual feeding from Jehovah.

  If you consider yourself a member of the WTBTS and business details have not been revealed or vital information withheld then I can understand you would be upset.

  I am wondering when would you consider the funds not being used for the preaching work? What area of costs do you consider not to be involved with the printing costs?
  
  Would anyone here have ever been involved in any voluntary community organisation or charity? All by law here are required to have presidents, secretaries and treasurers. They all have to manage whatever funds have been donated or raised by fund-raising activities. Even the tiny poor ones, who only operate on a few thousand a year, will take a portion of their funds and invest them in an interest bearing term deposit of some kind for the paltry interest. It would be making poor use of the money otherwise wouldn't it? I would consider it irresponsible for an organisation to not manage, as best it can any surplus funds it has from time to time wouldn't you?

  I am sorry for the pain and hurt we are all experiencing in varying degrees. A sense of betrayal is not easy to get over. I did not intend to invalidate anyone's experiences or means of expressing their feelings. I just wanted to express mine too.
• 

  RedhorseWoman

  Circare,

  From my position now, I can look at the WTBTS and applaud their business acumen. For that matter, I can see that the Catholic Church and other churches have also done well in their business dealings.

  The point that rankles me, however, is that the WTBTS ALWAYS criticized other religions for operating in a businesslike manner. The diatribes against the Catholic Church in particular were scathing. There were ALWAYS articles about the Catholic Church and its business dealings and how this PROVED that they were not from God.

  The WTS held itself up as an example of true Christianity....using all money to further the preaching work. Everyone is a volunteer, noone gets paid, EVERY CENT is used to further the preaching work. Finding out that this rhetoric was all lies is the thing that bothers me. They do EXACTLY the things that they condemn in others.
• 

  Zep

  The WT is an Orwellian Nightmare.
• 

  waiting

  Hey Zep! Have you read The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses? Could not buy a new copy, so my son got it from his university - quite interesting especially to read along with Orwell's 1984. About half way through both. (John Grishem has a new novel in paperback I'm reading also - but that's relevant only to the fact that I drink too much caffine.)

  Hey Red I was thinking about the WTBTS in corrolation to the Catholic Church also. Few individuals are "known" to get rich by being hiarchy in the Church. They just live extremely well. A few (in comparison to the number of Catholics) have prestige, power, etc, and really cool "palaces" to live in.

  I've never seen a nun and most priests live high on the hog. Not saying the Catholic Church is not one of the most extravagant, monetary, pretentious, religious institutions on the earth - just saying that no one particular individual gets the most money. The organization has the power, and the money, and the self-imposed authority from God. The organization is the key.

  I think that's a fair look at the WTBTS organization. No man, unlike Billy Graham, etc., is getting rich. But the organization is extremely wealthy. The organization is extremely powerful (at least to six million people.)

  The WTBTS followers pay more attention to their Spiritual Channel than Catholics do to their Pope, imho as being a former Catholic. A lot of power, particularily if one were to believe he actually was a "channel" between man and God.

  waiting
• 

  Zep

  Nah, i haven't read the book Waiting.I just read their regular literature and that clues me in enough to know i'm spot on in calling them an Orwellian Nightmare!.
• 

  circare

  Hi again Red, Zep,Waiting,

  I understand that my comments and questions may seem to be putting me at odds with you all. That is not my intention. I would just like to sort out the reality from the emotionalism. Not that there is anything wrong with emotions but it does not give one much to use when discussing this with others.

  Red I have been doing a little re-reading and I can't find the articles you were referring to about the Catholic Church and its' business dealings? Could you perhaps let me know which ones they were?

  Also I was curious as to what you meant when you said

  The WTS held itself up as an example of true Christianity....using all money to further the preaching work. Everyone is a volunteer, noone gets paid, EVERY CENT is used to further the preaching work. Finding out that this rhetoric was all lies is the thing that bothers me.

  
  I am not sure what point you are making here. Don't they use the funds for the preaching work?

  Hi Zep,
  I was wondering what other organisations you have belonged to?
  Would there be some that would not fit the Orwellian Nightmare?

  Waiting the nuns and priests I have had contact with have not lived 'high on the hog' in my opinion either. (About the same as the bro and sisters in the respective Bethel homes.) There are exceptions of course depending on which order they belong to, as you would know some have vows of poverty etc and they live very ascetically.

  I think there are a lot of Catholics that follow their Pope and their religion very seriously - to the point of crawling on their hands and knees long distances to do penance, or pilgrimage to a particular holy statue, site or relic. Being a former Catholic you would also be aware that for the thousands that disregard the words and directives of their Pope there are as many again who bind their lives by them.

  Edited by - circare on 4 September 2000 10:0:7
• 

  Seven

  Hi circare, I would like to comment on

  I think there are alot of Catholics that follow their pope and their religion very seriously-to the point of crawling on their hands and knees...

  When I posed this question to a Catholic friend of mine he said,Sure, there are
  believers who take that route, but they are in the minority in this country-mostly hardliners. Blind obedience is a characteristic of believers from third-world countries.Similar to us.

  ...for the thousands that disregard the words and directives of their pope there are as many again who bind their lives by them.

  Again my friend commented that this is true to a certain extent in the US, but it is due to us(meaning US Catholics) that reform within the church took place at all. After all, we are the ones funding the whole operation, with the highest per captita income in the world. Money talks bullsh*t walks, as the old saying goes.His words leaves me with much to consider. Withholding of funds leads to gradual, if not immediate reform. What a concept. It worked for them through a relaxed stance on birth control, interfaith marriages, divorces and the nearly non-existant practice of excommunication.
  seven

  Edited by - sevenofnine on 4 September 2000 11:15:17