A Chinese Meal with Fred Franz

by VM44 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  Briand

  It is easier to hate an unseen enemy.

  I agree with that, it was never hard for me to know I was hated. When people get right in your face and say "I hate you". I never minded that much, because I can deal with something blatant, it is the "we are doing this for your good" crowd that I always had trouble with. As far as money goes, I never got one penny when I was in ministry, usually full time. I worked two jobs on top of what was expected.

  I truly thought this was "God's will" (tm) until I see me living in a traitor and other people who are in the "ministry" (tm) driving new cars and taking vacations all the time. But I made those choices no one ever forced me, and there is a pay off. The ministry I was and still am in is beautiful and the people are grand. I admit I get jealous and even envious at times. It is the condescending that gets to me the supper spiritual folks looking down on other people and judging these other peoples lives.

  I never hated any of these folks, I do hate the destruction of lives alot of this stuff caused though.

  thank you for your insight.
• 

  Introspection

  Gee English, did you write that yourself?

  "Knowing others is wisdom. Knowing the self is insight. Mastering others requires force. Mastering the self requires true strength." -Tao Te Ching, Chapter 33
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  Had Enough

  Hello Kismet:

  Its good to hear from you again.

  When you described your experience with Fred Franz's generosity, I can understand your reluctance to "bad mouth" him and others who perhaps displayed a "good trait". It really helps us to see that yes, with all the bad we've heard about, there is a good side to him too. It helps me to be able to accept your thoughts, but only to a point.

  I hope you can understand also where most people, who do bad mouth him and others of the GB, are coming from.

  Those who hold him and others of the GB in contempt, do so because of the bad effect the actions of these men has had on their lives personally and the lives of countless others due to their heavy-handedness in causing people to obey without question. These men had long been far removed from the "real world" and yet their decisions affecting our everyday lives were passed on to us, and were held up in high regard as coming from God himself.

  You know the reasons you left Bethel...you saw things first hand before many of us could figure out just what was causing our doubts and feelings.

  I'm glad though to have all sides presented to us to make a fair judgement of him and others who are being held accountable for the pain and suffering of many in the org. You are presenting facts that need to be considered to be just and to give equal consideration to, just like Maximus is doing in his plea to COs and DOs to present info so all sides of the abuse issue can be considered.

  As always, I enjoy your mature outlook on so many issues needing to be ironed out.

  Hope we can have a nice chat again. The last one was too short.

  Cheers
  Had Enough
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  Copernicus

  Speaking of Franz, Maximus said:

  When he traveled--and one year he went around the world--folks would slip him cash either in his palm or in envelopes, but nothing on the grand scale that takes place today.

  I can’t speak for what goes on at Bethel, but I know that within my own circuit (in an affluent city), the CO’s do very well. Based on what I personally gave them every visit in the form of cash or other gifts, and assuming that at least 10 others (a low estimate) in the congregation did the same, they’d easily be good to go to the tune of between 500 –1000 dollars a week. Not bad hey? I used to think about this whenever I’d read a resolution to the publishers asking them to approve funds to pay ALL the expenses a CO might incur during his visit.

  So let’s see the equivalent in income earned by a poor servant of God such as a CO:

  1) a nice furnished apartment paid for by the local circuit = $750 mo
  2) new vehicle leased by the Society = $400 mo
  3) food and other items paid by the locals = $400 mo
  4) Insurance paid by the Society = $300 mo
  5) Clothes and other personal items donated $200 mo
  6) Direct cash contributions = $3-4000 mo

  Net haul: Around 6,000 per month, tax-free in my area.

  Did I miss anything?

  Our circuit was a real plum, famous for taking in CO’s on their final tour who were about to retire. They’d get a chance to fatten up the old retirement account over the two years they spent with us. How much, did you ask? Around $100,000 in cash total.

  Another minor point. . . early on as a publisher, I noticed that the CO’s seemed to favor certain brothers with special notice. Calling on them for prayers, meeting assignments during the visit, involvement in field service, etc. Later on I found that my being bestowed with such lavish attention by a CO was in direct proportion to my personal contributions to him. What a surprise, huh?

  I had to prove this to my wife on several occasions, since she refused to believe it at first. Yes my friends, all sorts of special consideration can be bought in God’s organization. So let’s not be cheapskates!

  I’d like to go on expanding on the many other examples I’m aware of, but I was just overtaken by nausea.
• 

  Maximus

  As a CO I recall serving in ghetto congregations where I was embarassed by the number of elderly folks and poor families pressing a crumpled $1 bill in my palm, but accepted it in the loving spirit in which it was offered. Always covered the necessities. My wife and I once shared a meal with a sister comprised likely of a neighborhood sparrow. It was shared in love, and likewise received in gratitude.

  In the same circuit, across the tracks, the wealthiest congregation didn't bother "asking" for expenses--weren't allowed to just turn them in at the time. I later asked a prominent elder why that was the case, and he said he did not wish to spoil traveling reps; they should learn what life was really like. That congregation reflected this fellow, and I barely had money for gas.

  My wife and I each Monday moved our entire wardrobe and earthly possessions to the next congregation, doing the same thing the following week. We barely made ends meet but never were hungry.

  What do you think it was like to sit in a meeting at the circuit assembly in which a vote was taken on whether to pay a small dental bill? One wag finally said, "It isn't our fault he has bad teeth." Humiliating.

  I knew a contemporary who inadvertently turned in a pharmacy bill that included the purchase of condoms. Can you imagine the hell that broke loose? The congregation through its wise ones refused to pay that princely sum. Poor guy didn't learn. Next visit it was his wife's sanitary napkins! Ouch.

  I kid you not.

  There are some really sad stories of older folks who were used and then discarded like old shoes, with no place to go. But that's a story for another day.

  I have absolutely no use for the czars who clean up today. Copernicus tells it like it is in many well-to-do areas. The tithing of $6.50 per head was dropped, I understand, but circumstances may dictate a return .... someone else may have details.

  GB members still have their sugar daddies these days. Men like Fred Franz abhorred that kind of thing. I knew the man's flaws but also have to tell it like it is, as did Kismet. FWF had a special fondness for missionaries.

  Max
• 

  Briand

  I will try to do better.
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  Copernicus

  Max said:

  I have absolutely no use for the czars who clean up today. Copernicus tells it like it is in many well-to-do areas.

  “Czars”. . . what a perfect description that title confers!

  I wanted to note that in my post I certainly didn’t mean to imply that many of the traveling brothers don’t sacrifice greatly in every way to perform what they believe is a service to their brothers. They do.

  But what I saw with my own eyes among those who I dealt with personally, was the dawning realization that the end wasn’t coming – and they had better do something fast to cover their butts. A perfectly understandable human reaction to an apparent fact. Unfortunately these same men continued to encourage the average pub to forego college, retirement planing, etc. Thus creating the same predicament for others that they themselves where trying to avoid.

  What I’ve often wondered about though was how certain CO’s did seem to be selected for the choice areas. I have to believe that strings were pulled to get certain assignments, assuming one had the “juice” to make it happen.

  Thoughts?
• 

  Princess

  Sorry to go so totally off the topic...

  Englishman: Thanks for the words to the song. The Prince came home singing it one day and I'm so happy to give him another verse to work on. I'm so sick of hearing the same one over and over! LOL!!

  We were watching an interview with the Monty Python guys the other night and they all started singing it.

  Princess
• 

  Norm

  Hi Kismet,

  Among other things you said:

  This might explain one of the reasons I am bothered when I see the personal attacks made against individuals. I knew these people and saw their good sides too.

  All people have good sides Kismet, even those who we consider monsters like Hitler and Stalin, was very loving and caring towards friends family and usually their children. A couple of years ago, a big national newspaper had an interview with the daughter of the Chief of Gestapo in occupied Norway, where she naturally remembered her father with great fondness. This caused a storm from the relatives of those who were tortured and executed on his orders. They of course was greatly disturbed by getting their images of a monster destroyed in such a way. You don’t even have to be particularly or even personally evil to commit the most hideous crimes.
  It is enough that you are committed to a CAUSE. Once you are convinced that the CAUSE are more important than yourself and everything else, it is just a matter of coincidence what horrible atrocities you will commit.

  It is easier to hate an unseen enemy.
  Kismet

  Not on the scale or magnitude of the Nazi’s of course but Franz was no doubt responsible for a lot of problems among the Witness community with his 1975 nonsense. As a prominent leader in the Watchtower Society he was also responsible for shaping and forming the policy that leads to covering up child abuse and the “blood” policy which has caused the untimely death of many Witnesses. Franz and many of the other Watchtower leaders may even have thought, and those alive may still think that they are doing people a favour. Personally I don’t hate any of those people, I consider them examples of how tragic it gets when you succumb to Biblical superstition. Then again, I don’t have any problems understanding those who do HATE these men. Many people have every reason to do so. Anyone who’s life is ruined because of having lost a loved one, or is being shunned by his entire family and social network on the order of these men have every right to hate them.

  Norm
• 

  teejay

  This might explain one of the reasons I am bothered when I see the personal attacks made against individuals. I knew these people and saw their good sides too. It is easier to hate an unseen enemy.

  Nice words, Kismet, if not great truths. I like the honesty and the giving of credit where it's due--sometimes too rarely seen here. Occasionally I am awarded with jewels of rare value that I find here on JW.com, but it takes a little effort finding them. It doesn?t hurt to be lucky, either.

  Thanks, Kismet.

  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  Hello, Briand, and welcome to the board!! I believe this is the first of your posts that I've seen.

  You said,

  I truly thought this was "God's will" (tm) until I see me living in a trailer and other people who are in the "ministry" (tm) driving new cars and taking vacations all the time. But I made those choices no one ever forced me, and there is a pay off. The ministry I was and still am in is beautiful and the people are grand. I admit I get jealous and even envious at times. It is the condescending that gets to me the super spiritual folks looking down on other people and judging these other people's lives.

  I never hated any of these folks, I do hate the destruction of lives alot of this stuff caused though.

  I like YOUR honesty, as well. I may be MISreading between the lines, but you strike me as a person of integrity. That is a rare quality in today's world, my friend, regardless of the social category. That alone makes you very special.

  Back when I was active, I really enjoyed the ministry, also, and pitied those that I saw who were more interested in the glory of position and collection of material things. I loved talking to people of all walks of life, sharing with them what I thought was the truth of God. I felt it was the best way to spend my days. Having X number of studies or placements never mattered much to me. I just enjoyed talking and learning from people. In certain ways, I haven't changed and I hope you don't either. You have a rare gift. You should keep it.

  Later, in another post you said,

  I will try to do better.

  You're doing just fine, my friend. You have no need of shame.

  peace to you and yours,
  todd